Would you kill to gain entery to heaven?

What would you do if?

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crystalmage
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Would you kill to gain entery to heaven?

Post #1

Post by crystalmage »

In the old testament god commands you to kill people such as homosexuals, you wife, you kids ... to gain entery to heaven. I believe, I can't remember the exact passages and when I asked on another forum the christians wouldn't tell me.

1 god commands you to kill people.
2 christ says only those that are free from sin may cast the first stone.
3 christ died washing all our sins away.
4 now that all our sins are gone ... If the bible is the word of god... god is pretty specific about what we must do.
McCulloch wrote: I make no claims about God.
McCulloch wrote:We claim that god does not exist

People who keep changing their story are called liars.

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john_anthony_gonzalez
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Post #11

Post by john_anthony_gonzalez »

Their is also nothing wrong with killing,
Its murder that is considered sin

Do you know the difference?

Talisman
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Post #12

Post by Talisman »

I think you must be talking about the difference between manslaughter and murder. Murder is of course premeditated, whereas manslaughter is not, but might come about for example due to self defence in the case of say a battered wife, or perhaps even due to some kind of mental illness. Killing because God tells you to though is in my book murder, because this would quite clearly be premeditated. You would need to have read The Bible, or whatever other text is is that you believe commands this, and think about it hopefully very carefully, before deciding to carry out such a killing. This is clearly then premeditated and is therefore murder.

I notice however that no one as yet has answered my question, posed earlier on in this thread. Could it be because you cannot separate self from your beliefs I wonder? I would be particularly interested to know peoples views on the apparent contradiction between God telling people on the one hand to kill their naughty sons, homosexuals etc, but on the other hand, the 10 commandments clearly stating 'though shalt not kill'.
Talisman wrote:Well, what do you think, not as a Christian, but as a human being ? Is it okay to kill people simply because they choose (not that being gay is a choice you understand) a different lifestyle to your own ? How would it be if the boot was on the other foot and God told homosexuals to kill so called straight people ? Would that be right bearing in mind also that one of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill ?
June
I used to be an aetheist until I realised I was God....

www.juneaustin.co.uk

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john_anthony_gonzalez
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Post #13

Post by john_anthony_gonzalez »

Talisman wrote:I think you must be talking about the difference between manslaughter and murder. Murder is of course premeditated, whereas manslaughter is not, but might come about for example due to self defence in the case of say a battered wife, or perhaps even due to some kind of mental illness. Killing because God tells you to though is in my book murder, because this would quite clearly be premeditated. You would need to have read The Bible, or whatever other text is is that you believe commands this, and think about it hopefully very carefully, before deciding to carry out such a killing. This is clearly then premeditated and is therefore murder.

I notice however that no one as yet has answered my question, posed earlier on in this thread. Could it be because you cannot separate self from your beliefs I wonder? I would be particularly interested to know peoples views on the apparent contradiction between God telling people on the one hand to kill their naughty sons, homosexuals etc, but on the other hand, the 10 commandments clearly stating 'though shalt not kill'.
Talisman wrote:Well, what do you think, not as a Christian, but as a human being ? Is it okay to kill people simply because they choose (not that being gay is a choice you understand) a different lifestyle to your own ? How would it be if the boot was on the other foot and God told homosexuals to kill so called straight people ? Would that be right bearing in mind also that one of the 10 commandments is thou shalt not kill ?

June

My bible says murder
bibles used to say kill, but through study it shows that the bible did not forbid all taking of life, The law itself had capital punishment, as well as warfare. The deliberate murder of another person (outside the legitimate provisions of capital punishment or war) flagrantly violated the sanctity of life
Killing because God tells you to though is in my book murder
What about our soldiers over sea's, do you think their murdering.
What about people on death row, do you feel like our country is murdering them

So killing because God tells you for capital punishment, or for war =Wrong

Killing b/c America is in a war, and killing because some laws are punishable by death=Right

How do you feel about these things in your book
Does the fact that you dont believe in God affect whether one exist or not?

Talisman
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Post #14

Post by Talisman »

First of all I did mention anything about soliders in a war situation or even capital punishment, but was talking strictly about what the Bible has to say in terms of killing homosexuals or those with a lifestyle that the Bible does not seem to approve of for reasons best known to those who wrote it.

With regard to war though, sometimes you have to go to war in order to stop killing. I know that this may sound like a contradiction, but when you look at many of the dictators in my lifetime and previous times, the only way to really stop these people has been to go to war, as it is all that they understand and can relate to. I do not necessarily have to like this, but it a fact of life. It is neither right nor wrong, but just is. Also when soliders kill, it is not necessarily in itself premeditated, although they are course trained to do this, but it is in fact more an act of self defence. This is not the same as killing in order to defend your beliefs, which is what religious killing is all about, but killing in order to prevent further bloodshed and actually free people from oppressive regimes or whatever.

The killing of people on death row though I do believe is most definitely murder as this is clearly premeditated, and also sanctioned by the state, which acts as both judge and jury.

The point though that I am really trying to make is why do we need to ask God what he thinks on these things, why not act on our own instincts and intuition, and do what WE think is right as human beings. Is it possible to separate the two ? Every Christian I have ever spoken to has been unable to, because they define themselves almost completely by what they believe, until the belief becomes inseparable from self. Belief though is not who you are, but what you think and feel, and thoughts and feelings can be changed, just as we change our clothes, if we allow ourselves to see beyond what we have been taught. Can anyone on here do that, and then still say with a clear conscience that killing in God's name is right ?

June
I used to be an aetheist until I realised I was God....

www.juneaustin.co.uk

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john_anthony_gonzalez
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Post #15

Post by john_anthony_gonzalez »

The point though that I am really trying to make is why do we need to ask God what he thinks on these things, why not act on our own instincts and intuition, and do what WE think is right as human beings. Is it possible to separate the two ? Every Christian I have ever spoken to has been unable to, because they define themselves almost completely by what they believe, until the belief becomes inseparable from self. Belief though is not who you are, but what you think and feel, and thoughts and feelings can be changed, just as we change our clothes, if we allow ourselves to see beyond what we have been taught. Can anyone on here do that, and then still say with a clear conscience that killing in God's name is right ?
Because were carnal imperfect people, this doesnt mean that i turn my instincts and intuition off. But as Christians we have a guide to show us what is wrong and right towards Gods eyes, not people.

I dont understand the last question, are you asking is it possible for a Christian to become an atheist, or if a Christian can change a view on killing in Gods name.
Does the fact that you dont believe in God affect whether one exist or not?

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Post #16

Post by Talisman »

Not at all, I am asking whether you can accept that you are not your beliefs, but exist as a separate entity outside of what you believe in. A human being is still a human being whether you believe that God is a martian, a salami sandwich, or anything else that you want to believe that he/she is. Strip away the beliefs that you have been brought up with and gathered from your life experiences, and you are still a human being. Beliefs then are not who we are at a core level, but just trappings like anything else that we use to define ourselves, such as race, gender, jobs and marital status. If you accept that then you can accept that beliefs can be changed, and you can allow yourself to listen to your own gut instinct rather than just accepting what the Bible/your preacher tells you to.

It is entirely possible to still be a Christian but not to take the Bible literally, after all we are living in the 21st Century, and it was written 2000 years ago, for people who lived then and not now. What was appropriate then is not necessarily appropriate now. In fact, the Old Testament was not even written for Christians, but for Jews, so any laws that God does set down in at least the first five books are Jewish laws and do not apply to Christians anyway.

There was a time when we thought it was acceptable to send little boys up chimneys, and to have slaves, but times have changed. Attitudes towards the Bible though, by the more fundamentalist Christians have not. Just because God or the Bible, if you accept that it is the word of God (which I personally do not) tells you to do something it does not mean that it is right. You have to make up your own mind based on reasoning and common sense and not just blindly accept. Logic and reasoning tell me that it is not acceptable to kill someone just because a book tells you to, or just because they have a lifestyle which is different to your own. If it upsets you that much, then rather than destroy that thing by killing it, you need to look at the reasons behind your fear and dislike of that thing and deal with it in an
appropriate way.

June

June
I used to be an aetheist until I realised I was God....

www.juneaustin.co.uk

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john_anthony_gonzalez
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Post #17

Post by john_anthony_gonzalez »

Talisman wrote:Not at all, I am asking whether you can accept that you are not your beliefs, but exist as a separate entity outside of what you believe in. A human being is still a human being whether you believe that God is a martian, a salami sandwich, or anything else that you want to believe that he/she is. Strip away the beliefs that you have been brought up with and gathered from your life experiences, and you are still a human being. Beliefs then are not who we are at a core level, but just trappings like anything else that we use to define ourselves, such as race, gender, jobs and marital status. If you accept that then you can accept that beliefs can be changed, and you can allow yourself to listen to your own gut instinct rather than just accepting what the Bible/your preacher tells you to.

It is entirely possible to still be a Christian but not to take the Bible literally, after all we are living in the 21st Century, and it was written 2000 years ago, for people who lived then and not now. What was appropriate then is not necessarily appropriate now. In fact, the Old Testament was not even written for Christians, but for Jews, so any laws that God does set down in at least the first five books are Jewish laws and do not apply to Christians anyway.

There was a time when we thought it was acceptable to send little boys up chimneys, and to have slaves, but times have changed. Attitudes towards the Bible though, by the more fundamentalist Christians have not. Just because God or the Bible, if you accept that it is the word of God (which I personally do not) tells you to do something it does not mean that it is right. You have to make up your own mind based on reasoning and common sense and not just blindly accept. Logic and reasoning tell me that it is not acceptable to kill someone just because a book tells you to, or just because they have a lifestyle which is different to your own. If it upsets you that much, then rather than destroy that thing by killing it, you need to look at the reasons behind your fear and dislike of that thing and deal with it in an
appropriate way.

June

June
Listening to our Gut instinct is what gets us in trouble. We are carnal people that live for worldly pleasures. As for living as a separate entity outside of what i believe in, its pretty much impossible. The moment of salvation Christians are born again into Gods family. So no matter what we do its impossible to live as a separate entity outside of Christianity, We literally become enslaved to Christ.

Not every word of the bible is meant to be taken literally, some of the book is in metaphors. I wouldnt say that OT was just for the Jews, it was for Gods people. And the reason we are no longer bound to any laws is because of Christ not only were our personal sins were forgiven, but those rules that condemned us have also been removed by the death of Christ (Col. 2:9)

Is the reason you dont believe the bible the word of God because you dont believe in God. My religion teaches us how to think, not what to think. Not all sects of Christianity are the same tho, some rather tell their followers what to think and thats their system for following not mine.
Does the fact that you dont believe in God affect whether one exist or not?

Talisman
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Post #18

Post by Talisman »

Actually I believe very much in God, but what I do not believe in is the concept of a judgmental God who demands things of us and punishes us for so called sins that we have committed. Neither do I believe that God is an external entity, but rather that He exists inside each and every one of us - in fact that when He created us, we each took on a piece of the God energy that is part of us, and so in our way, we are aspects of God. If then God does judge us in the way that Christians I have met describe and seem to think, then in doing so, God is also judging Himself, which I am sure you would agree, is patently absurb.

These beliefs may sound quite strange and even alient to some, but are actually far more common than you may think. They form the basis for a school of thought known as Gnosticism, of which there were and are many branches. The beliefs are very ancient, far predating Christianity - in fact Christianity was itself originally a Gnostic movement.

I am sure that many of the Christians on here would dispute this quite vociferously, but in the end that does matter, for no one has a monopoly on truth. It is not my place (or anyone else's for that matter, including God) to tell us what to believe, but we should make up our minds. All paths lead to the same source, and God's house has many mansions ....

As for being unable to exist as a separate entity outside of your beliefs, that too is your choice to make, and if it makes you happy then fine.

June
I used to be an aetheist until I realised I was God....

www.juneaustin.co.uk

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john_anthony_gonzalez
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Post #19

Post by john_anthony_gonzalez »

Actually I believe very much in God, but what I do not believe in is the concept of a judgmental God who demands things of us and punishes us for so called sins that we have committed.
God is our judge,
Neither do I believe that God is an external entity, but rather that He exists inside each and every one of us - in fact that when He created us, we each took on a piece of the God energy that is part of us, and so in our way, we are aspects of God.
I completely agree, but i dont think we took a piece of Gods energy, i know we took the spirit of the complete God in us.
If then God does judge us in the way that Christians I have met describe and seem to think, then in doing so, God is also judging Himself, which I am sure you would agree, is patently absurb.
God is our judge and at the moment we believe in Christ of eternal life we are declared not guilty. we have been justified.
These beliefs may sound quite strange and even alient to some, but are actually far more common than you may think. They form the basis for a school of thought known as Gnosticism, of which there were and are many branches. The beliefs are very ancient, far predating Christianity - in fact Christianity was itself originally a Gnostic movement.
what do you define as Gnostic and how do you think Christianity was itself originally a Gnostic movement

I am sure that many of the Christians on here would dispute this quite vociferously, but in the end that does matter, for no one has a monopoly on truth. It is not my place (or anyone else's for that matter, including God) to tell us what to believe, but we should make up our minds. All paths lead to the same source, and God's house has many mansions ....
what do you interpret as requirements for being saved in you beliefs, different paths lead to the same source, was something that even peter addressed in the bible when he spoke the gnostics, you could PM me so we dont get off topic.
As for being unable to exist as a separate entity outside of your beliefs, that too is your choice to make, and if it makes you happy then fine.

June
Does the fact that you dont believe in God affect whether one exist or not?

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Post #20

Post by Blade Runner »

The terms of the question changed significantly from "does God command to kill to enter into his Heaven?" to "does command us to kill?"

These are very, VERY different questions. God ordered the Israelites to take possession of Canaan, carry out his justice in specific situations, and obey his law. While God does not need t justify what he does as he is the Uncaused Cause of everything, creator of all, and the only all knowing and all powerful being in existence and can do what he pleases with that which he has made. Luckily for us, he governs according to his character, because complete unconditional love is just as much a part of his character as absolute and uncompromising justice... we have a way to know him and be loved by him despite our sin through his son. This love has never been conditional upon our killing of another human being. We did not kill Christ as he offered himself up as a pure and holy sacrifice on our behalf.

Does he command us to kill, in this day and age I believe he does not command us to kill for justice or unjustly. The act of execution for justice has been given over to the governments and principalities as laid out by the Apostle Paul and Jesus Christ.

Did he require that the Children of Israel engage in the unpleasant and horrible task of carrying out the justice required by the law? Yes, as all elements of society were to be obedient to him in Israel, and he was directly on hand to provide judgment and a law. We have no such convenience with our modern governments, we only have the Holy Spirit invisibly within us as requested by Christ so as to be personally more Christlike.

It is interesting to see how the Children of Israel were judged by God through Assyria and Babylon in much more horrible a way that was commanded by God to be done to the Canaanites and Amalakites etc. God is loving, but he is also fully capable and willing to judge and discipline harshly. We live in a broken world, a world that God has chosen not to immediately correct (judge) not because he hates sin, but because he is long suffering, merciful, and ultimately gracious. If he had no love, he would have immediately judged all of us and destroyed us all without a thought.

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