Eating meat...

[Bekki659]

Yes, this dilemma is mine. It's literally tearing me apart from the inside; its that bad of a conflict to me.

Background:
I've been a vegetarian for a long time. Strict. Nothing with gelatin in it, nothing made with chicken broth or beef broth. That's very limiting.

Recently, I've gone through some pretty life changing events in the past year. One of them is meeting my boyfriend, who has been the first person to convince me that I actually have a good chance of getting married and having kids.
Now, I don't want to raise my kids as vegetarians for the following reasons:
1) I am Scotch-Irish. That's a big part of who I am, and it hardly allows for vegetarianism. I want my kids to experience meat pies, stew, ect.
2) I dont want them to feel like outsiders on my boyfriends side of the family. MY family is very liberal when it comes to cooking. Me and my mom make a point of it to eat food from all over the world, and experience many things... but his family is very traditional. They do a lot of fried chicken and fried stuff in general... they are the typical down home cookin, christian family.
2) I want my kids to experience fine meats. I want them to be able to eat my dad's amazing steaks, and I want to make them the recipes that my grandmother brought back from Panama when they moved to the states.

I personally miss the variety of things that you can do with meat. I used to make fantastic dishes with meat as the centerpiece.

The dilemma:

I don't know if I can do it. Well I KNOW I can do it, but not with a clear conscience. I don't so much have a problem with eating meat... I asked my boyfriend and his family (who I actually have incredible amounts of respect and adoration for) how the Bible dealt with the issue, and I find that comforting.

Its more the way that meat is made these days. I cannot STAND the way slaughter is carried out... it makes me cry to think about it, in addition that I already cry over the thought of eating meat again.

Where you guys come in:
How do justify eating meat? Do you have guilt? Is it different now than what the bible was talking about so many years ago simply because of the new-age mass slaughter process? Does it not matter?

I think... I might go to a local "cruelty free" farmer and buy some chicken. I dont think I would be able to eat beef with a clear conscience yet... what do you guys think of that choice?

I know that it is up to me in the end, but I feel like you guys always bring up such good points and are such an educated bunch of people... it would be nice to have some outside views.

[C-Nub]

I must ask why you have ethical problems with vegetarians. Also, if our digestive system was designed for flesh intake, then why is meat so unhealthy? right around the beginning of this year I became vegan. I have had no health problems resulting from this. I just one day completely dropped meat and animal products from my diet, and have been fine. And I'm not having to take extra sources of fats and such-there are plenty of fats found in vegetables.

Try not to take this personally, but I rather dislike vegans.

Meat isn't unhealthy. Too much meat is unhealthy. Much like too many carrots is unhealthy, and will turn you orange (something I have witnessed first hand, hilarious.)

Give yourself time to see if health issues arise, maybe they won't, and it's a good diet for you, maybe they will, and I'll get to do some sort of 'I told you so' dance that I won't really admit to doing but will do nonetheless.

as far as the ethical issues with vegetarianism, I have great difficulty with the idea of raising and slaughtering 100 million pigs each year.

That's great. Here's my problem. PEOPLE are dying each year, from all sorts of things. If you, or any other vegan/vegetarian/PETA member/mouthy-animal-shop-owner thinks that animal rights are an issue we should even be discussing, I totally disagree. How we treat our pets/food may well be something worth talking about, something maybe even worth acting upon one day, but right now, I think it demonstrates a very alarming inability to properly prioritize. I don't care about pigs. They're pigs. I worry about the fact that one child dies of starvation every four seconds. (It might be minutes, but honestly, does that make a lick of difference?) I worry about the fact that children are orphaned by needless wars, that people without the means to provide for themselves, exiled to barren stretches of land in countries Americans have never heard of are left to die without media attention or international aid. We all know this is happening, and to worry about something as comparatively trivial as how pigs are treated while having this knowledge is an affront to our so-called humanity.

Now, people can argue about this, and suggest that just because pigs are less important than humans (or that somehow pigs aren't less important TO humans THAN humans...) doesn't mean that their rights shouldn't be protected too, but honestly, it just bugs me, it really bugs me, when some vegan in sweatshop shoes lectures me, and I'm not at all saying that you have here, on the treatment of animals while at the same time eating fruit and vegetables imported from poverty stricken nations filled with citizens who cannot afford to feed themselves on the money they earn farming for you. It's indecent, it's short sighted, and it makes absolutely zero difference in the big picture. If you started eating meat again tomorrow, it would not result in any more animals being killed, and if you convinced five people to stop eating animal products all together, it would not set a single little piglet free.

[FinalEnigma]

I must ask why you have ethical problems with vegetarians. Also, if our digestive system was designed for flesh intake, then why is meat so unhealthy? right around the beginning of this year I became vegan. I have had no health problems resulting from this. I just one day completely dropped meat and animal products from my diet, and have been fine. And I'm not having to take extra sources of fats and such-there are plenty of fats found in vegetables.

Try not to take this personally, but I rather dislike vegans.

Meat isn't unhealthy. Too much meat is unhealthy. Much like too many carrots is unhealthy, and will turn you orange (something I have witnessed first hand, hilarious.)

A study detailing the increased risk of cardiovascular disease due to consumption of meat-
http://www.jhsph.edu/clf/PDF%20Files/FI ... 0FINAL.pdf

Give yourself time to see if health issues arise, maybe they won't, and it's a good diet for you, maybe they will, and I'll get to do some sort of 'I told you so' dance that I won't really admit to doing but will do nonetheless.

health issues arise from vegetarianism when the vegetarian doesn't eat a proper diet because they are being lazy. if you eat a balanced vegetarian diet, you are not at increased risk of anything I know of.

as far as the ethical issues with vegetarianism, I have great difficulty with the idea of raising and slaughtering 100 million pigs each year.

That's great. Here's my problem. PEOPLE are dying each year, from all sorts of things. If you, or any other vegan/vegetarian/PETA member/mouthy-animal-shop-owner thinks that animal rights are an issue we should even be discussing, I totally disagree.

So you are telling me that as long as there is a larger moral wrong to discuss we shouldn't even be discussing other moral wrongs?

do you agree that it is immoral to kill hundreds of millions of living creatures each year for no good reason?

How we treat our pets/food may well be something worth talking about, something maybe even worth acting upon one day, but right now, I think it demonstrates a very alarming inability to properly prioritize. I don't care about pigs. They're pigs. I worry about the fact that one child dies of starvation every four seconds. (It might be minutes, but honestly, does that make a lick of difference?) I worry about the fact that children are orphaned by needless wars, that people without the means to provide for themselves, exiled to barren stretches of land in countries Americans have never heard of are left to die without media attention or international aid. We all know this is happening, and to worry about something as comparatively trivial as how pigs are treated while having this knowledge is an affront to our so-called humanity.

This makes no sense. It is an affront to humanity that I care about animals? you are right. children dieing of starvation is wrong. but so is animals being bred for the sole purpose of eating when it is not necessary, and in fact, counterproductive. Just because there is one wrong over here, doesn't mean that the other wrong over there should be ignored, and I don't care which one you think is a bigger wrong, they are still both wrong.

Now, people can argue about this, and suggest that just because pigs are less important than humans (or that somehow pigs aren't less important TO humans THAN humans...) doesn't mean that their rights shouldn't be protected too,

my argument

but honestly, it just bugs me, it really bugs me, when some vegan in sweatshop shoes lectures me, and I'm not at all saying that you have here, on the treatment of animals while at the same time eating fruit and vegetables imported from poverty stricken nations filled with citizens who cannot afford to feed themselves on the money they earn farming for you.

okay, so vegans shouldn't lecture people. There's a difference between lecturing everyone on being vegan and being vegan.


also, should nobody lecture others on wrongs because there are other wrongs out there they are not lecturing you about?

It's indecent, it's short sighted, and it makes absolutely zero difference in the big picture. If you started eating meat again tomorrow, it would not result in any more animals being killed, and if you convinced five people to stop eating animal products all together, it would not set a single little piglet free.

don't you pull this argument. that is essentially saying that 'if you cannot single handedly right a wrong, don't even try, and don't contribute to any attempts to do so.'

you are right. My being vegan probably does not save any animals. But I'm not the only vegan/vegetarian in the world. every one of us contributes, and I can guarantee you that the fact that over 12 million Americans are vegetarian does reduce the amount of animals slaughtered.

Also, arguing against vegetarians is arguing against your own position too, because-

Number of people who could be fed with the grains and soybeans eaten by U.S. livestock: 1.3 billion***

you can feed more people with the food that the animals in the country are eating than you can with the animals themselves. so if we were all vegetarians, we would have a lot more extra food to ship to other countries to feed the starving.

According to a recent article on MSN, The production of vegetarian food is also better for the environment.

It also requires 100 times the water to produce an equal amount of food, and 39 times the fossil fuels to produce an equal amount of protein if you are raising meat as opposed to vegetables. Cows also produce 60 million tons of methane each year.

(source is- http://www.sdearthtimes.com/et0494/et0494s8.html)

so where is the bad in producing more food to feed the starving, that is better for the environment, and avoiding the needless death of hundreds of millions of animals each year?

Try not to take this personally, but I rather dislike vegans.

oh of course, no worries. I understand that it is on ethical grounds, and not personal ones.

PS. try not to take it personally, but if you can have an ethical problem with vegans, then I can have an ethical problem with people who believe pleasing their taste buds is more important than the lives of animals.

[FinalEnigma]

I think C-nub deserves a clarification and apology: I don't really go around judging people, or feeling superior to them, or having ethical problems with them. the last note at the end of my post was me being smart(in a bad way) and unjustly throwing your statement back in your face for no good reason. While technically true, the statement is irrelevant and misleading. When I'm in a particular mood I tend to say thing that are deliberately misleading while being technically true.

PS. try not to take it personally, but if you can have an ethical problem with vegans, then I can have an ethical problem with people who believe pleasing their taste buds is more important than the lives of animals.

This, while technically true, does not apply to you, and I know quite well it doesn't apply, but I said it anyway because I was being smart and it sounded good. I think like a writer, and so say things sometimes that may misrepresent the truth(though I don't outright lie) because they sound good and/or flow well with the rest of the written material. And I've gotten a lot of practice writing horribly misleading papers for school, without actually lying.

it was observed to me that the general atmosphere of my post was somewhat hostile and judging, which wasn't my intent; Therefore, I apologize.

[Beto]

Try not to take this personally, but I rather dislike vegans.

Ah, don't be like that. I went veggie for a few years, ovo-lacto really, and have only recently re-introduced fish into my diet.

Meat isn't unhealthy. Too much meat is unhealthy. Much like too many carrots is unhealthy, and will turn you orange (something I have witnessed first hand, hilarious.)

I have a distinct impression that meat will be detrimental, in the long term, to my quality of life, particularly because I don't think I'm very genetically fit. I could be wrong, but I'm terrified of not aging well, and not eating meat definitely can't hurt, if the veggie diet can compensate.

I don't care about pigs. They're pigs.

The caring can't be really be taught. Me, I draw a personal line between mammals and fish, but can't expect anyone else to agree. An overwhelming anger fills me up when I think about the Faroe whale massacres, and pictures of children playing around with whale fetuses. Can I explain why I feel like this? Not really. I just feel some sort of empathy with animals with a nervous system close to our own.

[Antagonist]

Hi, I dislike the way how animals are slaughtered too. I think meat is too hard to resist though, especially beef is something that I would miss...
If I where in your position I would go to a biological store which only sells meat that has been 'treated' well. Although this meat is more expensive, you'll find it reassuring that the animals have lived a somewhat endurable/happy life.

[JoeyKnothead]

Y'all can say what ya will, but if anyone touches my porkchops there's gonna be heck to pay.

Man's physiology is that of a carnivore. Only relatively recent in our history have we become omnivores.

[Beto]

Man's physiology is that of a carnivore.

Debatable, I guess. I've read arguments concerning stomach acidity, and intestinal length that attempt to make us majorly herbivore. Of course, on rather biased websites.

[Andre_5772]

Where you guys come in:
How do justify eating meat? Do you have guilt? Is it different now than what the bible was talking about so many years ago simply because of the new-age mass slaughter process? Does it not matter?

Short answer: Life feeds on life.

Long answer:
I felt bad about eating meat because of the environmental concerns, but after three months of not eating meat, I started having health problems. I went back to eating meat and I feel like myself again. Everyone is different but there are at least some metabolic types which require one to eat meat or get sick. But yes, I do feel guilt and wish that I could get by on a veggie diet.

OTOH, we might think that carrots don't feel it when we bite them, just because they can't scream and try to run away. How horribly anthropomorphic of us! Tongue in cheek, but seriously, do we really know veggies don't suffer, too? What if the combine harvester ran over a few rodents harvesting the grain for your spelt loaf? The fact is, no one gets out of this life without indirectly causing a little bit of murder. And when we die, lots of little things will eat us up, too. Unless of course we get cremated or excessively embalmed.

I think that it is useless to try and prevent all suffering, even that which we indirectly support through our consumption. However, we can at least support cruelty free farms and try to minimize causing _unnecessary_ suffering. That's how I justify it.
-----
Side note - I would like to also chime in that I agree about vegans being shrill in trying to lecture everyone else into adopting their lifestyle. My mom used to say something about honey and vinegar; I guess vegan moms don't use honey because it exploits the poor worker bees?

[Beto]

I felt bad about eating meat because of the environmental concerns, but after three months of not eating meat, I started having health problems. I went back to eating meat and I feel like myself again. Everyone is different but there are at least some metabolic types which require one to eat meat or get sick. But yes, I do feel guilt and wish that I could get by on a veggie diet.

If you have a diet that relies on meat to provide those nutrients, and cut it, your body will resent that. A proper vegetarian diet needs to compensate, and this isn't necessarily cheap.

OTOH, we might think that carrots don't feel it when we bite them, just because they can't scream and try to run away. How horribly anthropomorphic of us! Tongue in cheek, but seriously, do we really know veggies don't suffer, too?

Something to do with a nervous system. Carrots... really?

What if the combine harvester ran over a few rodents harvesting the grain for your spelt loaf? The fact is, no one gets out of this life without indirectly causing a little bit of murder. And when we die, lots of little things will eat us up, too. Unless of course we get cremated or excessively embalmed.

Animal suffering can be minimized if you care about it, and it could be eliminated for feeding purposes if you care about it. That's all. No one is telling anyone they HAVE to care about animals, or feel upset by animal suffering. However, to say one does and settle for how things are is, perhaps, a bit hypocritical. Concerning my diet, animal suffering is not a priority, my health is, and I feel better than ever without eating any red or white meat, only fish. As I stated previously, I feel some empathy with mammals, not so much fish.

Side note - I would like to also chime in that I agree about vegans being shrill in trying to lecture everyone else into adopting their lifestyle. My mom used to say something about honey and vinegar; I guess vegan moms don't use honey because it exploits the poor worker bees?

Some folks don't even pick fruit, they wait 'till it falls. Takes all sorts.

[Andre_5772]

If you have a diet that relies on meat to provide those nutrients, and cut it, your body will resent that. A proper vegetarian diet needs to compensate, and this isn't necessarily cheap.

Well, I did try to do it the smart way, as in combining foods to get a complete protein, focusing on whole foods instead of refined, etc. I stated the three month time frame because I actually felt fine when I first made the switch, but I started having symptoms of protein deficiency a few months down the road. I could probably make it work with a truly scientific approach or with a professional dietitian in my employ. It's just that I don't see it as that big a priority when I can eat meat and feel fine. Granted, its mostly chicken breast and salmon with red meat only once in a few months. If I was eating a burger a day, I'd be sick from that as well.

Something to do with a nervous system. Carrots... really?

No, not really... but kinda. My point is that we can't really say for certain that a nervous system is required to experience suffering. I used suffering rather than pain because the latter doesn't really capture the idea I am after. I say it tongue in cheek because the real intent is to satirize the emotionally charged arguments for veganism. That is, why should our empathy only extend to things that have faces or nervous systems? Is similarity to ourselves the main criterion for empathy? If so, what objective boundaries exist around our moral obligations to protect some species from food consumption but not others?

If you feel healthy on a veggie diet, I say more power to ya. I was trying to answer the original post though about do omnivores feel guilty, and how do we justify it? While I don't think it can be justified on moral grounds, one must starve or eat. I think that mitigates moral concerns compared to a situation where to choose or choose otherwise doesn't extinguish the agent.