Morality of Suicide

Andre_5772 · Post by **Andre_5772** » Wed Oct 15, 2008 10:10 pm

For quite some time, I have been of the opinion that suicide is always immoral. This intuition arises out of my awe at how complicated and delicate the human body is, yet how elegantly all these systems work together, for the most part.

However I read something the other day which was to the effect of, "Life is for learning and growing, not for suffering through." I have to admit that this makes a lot of sense to me, too. But this leads to the possibility that at times suicide is justified. Specifically, when one can reasonably expect an excess of suffering in the future, and this condition will prevent any significant growth as a person, contribution to society, or whatever that person finds meaningful.

When I thought about this further, I realized that I probably wouldn't begrudge someone who committed suicide, provided they had rationally come to the conclusion that these criteria were satisfied. While I would never advise suicide, I think my view has changed to the point where I can accept it in certain circumstances without condemning it. I'm wondering what others think about the morality of suicide. Is it on par with murder because it ends a human life? Or is it a different act because rational beings are free to choose death for themselves although not for others?

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sat Oct 25, 2008 4:02 pm

ChristianGuy wrote:Everyone commits sins. Christians and non-christians alike. I don't believe that that is a deciding factor in going to Heaven or Hell.

Romans 3:23

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

I sin and I'm a Christian. I do not make a life style of sin and I feel guilty when I do sin. I believe that if you ask for forgivness for those sins then God will forgive you for them.

1 John 1:19

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

I previously stated that I have not Damned anyone by making that remark, but I mearly state what the Bible said. Why do you feel that you can never be saved. That is not in the Bible that I read.

Romans 10:8-11

8But what does it say? "The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart," that is, the word of faith we are proclaiming:

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved.

11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

I'm not trying to "preach" to you, but I just want to know why you think that you will never "make the grade" ?

Well, there is a lot of high falluting emotional words there. What does it mean?

For example "all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God'

What is 'sin'.. describe what 'sin' is in a manner that is reasonable.

What you do mean by 'fallen short of the Glory of God'?? That is a very vague statement that can be interpreted many ways.

As for never being put to shame.. well, I think I can look at JImmy Swaggert , Jim Baker and Paul Couch and Jimmy Haggard, and say that there is proof positive that this statement is incorrect.

And none of this seems to relate to the morality of suicide. Could you please relate it to the subject ?

ChristianGuy · Post by **ChristianGuy** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:57 am

Sorry goat, that last post was directed to Fallibleone because of some things that he said. I did not mean to get off topic, but I felt it was necessary to answer his questions.

1 John 3:4 says,

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness."

I believe that this is probably the clearest explaination of sin that the Bible has to offer. Any Godless act.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 12:07 pm

ChristianGuy wrote:Sorry goat, that last post was directed to Fallibleone because of some things that he said. I did not mean to get off topic, but I felt it was necessary to answer his questions.

1 John 3:4 says,

"Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; indeed, sin is lawlessness."

I believe that this is probably the clearest explaination of sin that the Bible has to offer. Any Godless act.

Then , since tying your shoes has nothing to do with God, it's a sin? Or, going to the toilet??

Typing the computer is sin, since it has nothing to do with God?

Just doesn't make sense to me.

Oh, and fallibleone is a 'her' not a him.

ChristianGuy · Post by **ChristianGuy** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 3:41 pm

Oh....

I'm very sorry Fallibleone. I wasn't paying attention. I did not mean to call you... a "He" Its funny how stupid the letter 's' can make one look

Goat, I think that you are missing the point. Tying your shoes is not a sin.

This is a definition of Godless according to dictionary.reference.com

godless [god-lis]

â€“adjective 1. having or acknowledging no god or deity; atheistic.
2. wicked; evil; sinful.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/godless

In the case of what the Bible says, the second definition above is what I mean by Godless. Wicked or Evil. Just because God does not appear to be directly involved does not mean that it is Evil. Thus tying your shoes is not a sin. Well, I guess if you imagined some weird and twisted fantasy that involved tying shoes then it could be

Also, if you want to talk about sin in another thread, feel free to start one or we can just keep it here. It does pertain to suicide in a sense I suppose.

Skyler · Post by **Skyler** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 9:34 pm

I think "sin" is best defined as an action or motive that is contrary to the nature of God. As God is, according to the Christian worldview, the standard of good, the opposite of God's nature as revealed in His Word would be evil.

ChristianGuy · Post by **ChristianGuy** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 10:37 pm

Good definition. I think that pretty well sums it up, Skyler.

Goat · Post by **Goat** » Sun Oct 26, 2008 11:07 pm

Skyler wrote:I think "sin" is best defined as an action or motive that is contrary to the nature of God. As God is, according to the Christian worldview, the standard of good, the opposite of God's nature as revealed in His Word would be evil.

But, when you distill all those words down, what does it truly mean? Even among Christians, there is disagreement about what "God's words" mean.. and that is not even taking into account the different variations of the Christian bible. (Catholic, vs Protestant, vs eastern orthodox, vs Coptic vs Ethiopian orthodox). You have so many disagreements about what the 'word of God' is, and the nature of god.

Is purposely being a martyr suicide?

Fallibleone · Post by **Fallibleone** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 1:20 pm

ChristianGuy wrote:Everyone commits sins. Christians and non-christians alike. I don't believe that that is a deciding factor in going to Heaven or Hell.

No, this is what you, as a Christian, believe. I, as a non-Christian, do not even believe in the concept of sin, so I don't believe that anyone sins. Your religious terminology has no hold over someone who lives outside of your religion.

Romans 3:23

"For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God."

As with your terminology, your literature holds no meaning for those who live outside your specific religion.

I sin and I'm a Christian. I do not make a life style of sin and I feel guilty when I do sin. I believe that if you ask for forgivness for those sins then God will forgive you for them.

1 John 1:19

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

Only if you believe in him. Otherwise, you can rot.

I previously stated that I have not Damned anyone by making that remark, but I mearly state what the Bible said. Why do you feel that you can never be saved. That is not in the Bible that I read.

This was your comment:

No. It is not okay to kill (murder) under any circumstance. If you are truly saced, however, then a specific sin is not going to sentence you to Hell. If you are not covered by the blood of Jesus, I believe (not to sound righteous, but only to state what the Bible says) that you are going to go to Hell.

I am unable to believe in God or Jesus's supernatural qualities without evidence. Unless I see some, I am going to hell, according to you and your book, for something which I cannot change.

I'm not trying to "preach" to you, but I just want to know why you think that you will never "make the grade" ?

I don't believe in God, so I don't believe that I am going to either Heaven or Hell. I am just trying to explain the monstrosity of your god. I've already explained this here and in other threads. Belief is not a choice. I cannot choose to believe, any more than you can choose to think you are a squid. God, being omniscient, knows this, and yet hides evidence of his existence. If he existed, I would be hellbound through his own bloody mindedness.

You want to put your trust in this...being, who makes little children suffer, who kills people slowly and painfully, who allows babies to come into the world without arms, legs, fully formed organs, with hideous deformities, who tests his own creation to see how far he can push them, who damns his own creation to Hell simply because they lack belief - you are willing to trust the being who puts people through all that, that somehow, in some way, it will have your best interests at heart? You do so if you wish. Personally, I'll be reaching for the lethal dose as soon as my life is no longer worth living.

Edit: don't worry about the 'he' thing. Easy mistake to make.

ChristianGuy · Post by **ChristianGuy** » Tue Oct 28, 2008 5:14 pm

Personally, I'll be reaching for the lethal dose as soon as my life is no longer worth living.

I'm sorry that you have come to that conclusion.

I am just trying to explain the monstrosity of your god.

I don't think that God does any of this to people, but rather Satan does. I think that Satan wanted control and he rebelled and failed miserably. Then I think he wanted to get back at God by trying to make Eve sin and he succeded. That is why I think we must be covered by the blood of Jesus to wash away or sinful nature.

No, this is what you, as a Christian, believe. I, as a non-Christian, do not even believe in the concept of sin, so I don't believe that anyone sins. Your religious terminology has no hold over someone who lives outside of your religion.

As you have put it, there is no sin to those who this belief does not pertain to (note that I have clearly defined what sin is). Do you not at least feel bad when doing something bad? If there is no wrong, then please feel free to kill any human you wish to. Who cares? Its not wrong. Right?

As with your terminology, your literature holds no meaning for those who live outside your specific religion.

The only reason that I use scripture is because this is www. DEBATINGCHRISTIANITY .com and since Christian view is based on the Bible, don't you think that it would make sense that I do so?

I am unable to believe in God or Jesus's supernatural qualities without evidence. Unless I see some, I am going to hell, according to you and your book, for something which I cannot change.

I think that we must believe in God because he will save us if we do. Do you not understand? I AM NOT CONDEMING YOU! You are not randomly selected to go to Heaven or Hell. It is your choice to believe in him. It does not say anywhere in the Bible that you cannot change that, but rather that you can. Are you getting your views from a Calvinist? Because I am NOT one

It is not his wish that any should perish. I believe that is in the Bible. Satan, however, is the culprit for all of these horrible things.

I realize that you are trying to make a point, but you should get your facts straight about what we believe before you try to stereotype us. I have learned that the hard way.

Going back to Job, in the end Job is restored by God and given a better life than he had even before hand

Fallibleone · Post by **Fallibleone** » Wed Oct 29, 2008 12:14 pm

ChristianGuy wrote:
Personally, I'll be reaching for the lethal dose as soon as my life is no longer worth living.
I'm sorry that you have come to that conclusion.

There's no need. Nothing is to be gained from a 'life' which has had all enjoyment or purpose removed, with no prospect of it ever returning.

I am just trying to explain the monstrosity of your god.
I don't think that God does any of this to people, but rather Satan does.

God is omnipotent, according to your faith. So if God did not allow Satan to do those things, they wouldn't be done. Therefore God is the ultimate culprit. Satan did not test Job, God did, with Satan as a tool. Satan: 'shall I rough him up a bit more, boss?' God: 'yeah, just keep him alive'. Nice God.

I think that Satan wanted control and he rebelled and failed miserably. Then I think he wanted to get back at God by trying to make Eve sin and he succeded. That is why I think we must be covered by the blood of Jesus to wash away or sinful nature.

How can Satan possibly succeed against the all-powerful creator of the universe, unless God wants him to?

No, this is what you, as a Christian, believe. I, as a non-Christian, do not even believe in the concept of sin, so I don't believe that anyone sins. Your religious terminology has no hold over someone who lives outside of your religion.

As you have put it, there is no sin to those who this belief does not pertain to (note that I have clearly defined what sin is).

Where? I have seen Skyler define sin and you agreeing. Perhaps I just missed it.

Do you not at least feel bad when doing something bad?

I see that the common mistake is about to be made again - the equating of 'I do not believe in the concept of sin' with 'I am amoral'. I feel bad when I do things which I perceive as 'wrong', for various reasons. You might be surprised at how developed my sense of empathy is.

If there is no wrong, then please feel free to kill any human you wish to.

I did not say there is no wrong. I said that 'sin' is a meaningless term outside of religion. I feel that certain things are wrong, and that others are right. You might agree or disagree with me on any of those things. When I do something that I feel is wrong, I feel bad - but that 'wrong' is subjective to me, and you might not see it that way. For example, I would find it terribly wrong for me to bring my children up as Christians, whereas I am guessing that for you, it would be right.

Who cares? Its not wrong. Right?

Wrong. One of the things I see is wrong is murder. That's because it takes away someone's life and I know that I would not want that to happen to me (unless I am in the persistent vegetative state that I described). I just don't call murder a 'sin' because 'sin' is a religious term, mixed up with 'evil' and 'Satan', neither of which I believe in.

As with your terminology, your literature holds no meaning for those who live outside your specific religion.
The only reason that I use scripture is because this is www. DEBATINGCHRISTIANITY .com and since Christian view is based on the Bible, don't you think that it would make sense that I do so?

You do whatever you think makes sense, as long as it is within the rules. It makes sense to me to let you know that since I am a non-believer, scripture has no meaning for me.

I am unable to believe in God or Jesus's supernatural qualities without evidence. Unless I see some, I am going to hell, according to you and your book, for something which I cannot change.
I think that we must believe in God because he will save us if we do.

Yes, exactly. And if we don't, we're headed downstairs.

Do you not understand? I AM NOT CONDEMING YOU!

I understand perfectly. If I don't believe in God, I am going to Hell (if God exists), no matter how petty my particular sins might be. But if I do believe in him, I can sin and still go to Heaven. Basically, God is egotistical. It is not within your power to condemn me. Luckily, it isn't within God's power either. My intention is to show that your god is not someone in whose motives I can trust.

You are not randomly selected to go to Heaven or Hell.

Yes, I know - only my reasons for not blieving this are different from yours. You believe I have a choice, and I believe that Heaven and Hell do not exist.

It is your choice to believe in him.

You make this claim very easily. I said that I can no more choose to believe in God than you can choose to believe that you are a squid. And yet you state that belief is a choice. It isn't. No matter how hard I try, and I have tried, I am not able to believe in God. If God exists and is omniscient, he should know this.

It does not say anywhere in the Bible that you cannot change that, but rather that you can.

As I have already explained, the Bible says nothing to me about what is true. That you have decided to treat the claims therein as fact does not make me obliged to do the same. So when you claim that 'it is your choice to believe in him', an opinion which you have formed from reading and accepting the Bible, it seems to be worth reiterating this point - the Bible is no gauge of what is right to me. More than that - it actively contradicts what I have found to be true in this instance. I am telling you that I cannot choose to believe in God. If you would rather assume that I am lying or mistaken than entertain the possibility that your book is wrong, that is no fault of mine.

Are you getting your views from a Calvinist? Because I am NOT one

I don't think I know any. So far, I have got my views on what you have said from what you have said -

- You trust in God that he will do the right thing

- Even when it looks as though he has forsaken you, you should trust that he has your best interests at heart

- Job is an example that even though God might seem to us to have very strange motives, it all comes right in the end.

- We all sin

- We can choose to believe in God

- Satan is responsible for all the evil in the world

- Those who are saved can commit a sin and still get to Heaven

- Even those who kill themselves (violate a commandment) go to Heaven if they are saved

- Those who are not saved will go to Hell

Did I get anything wrong?

It is not his wish that any should perish.

Then he, being omnipotent, should stop it.

I believe that is in the Bible. Satan, however, is the culprit for all of these horrible things.

Since (according to Christianity) God is all-powerful, Satan is a scapegoat. God allows him to do the horrible things unchecked, and sometimes gives him express permission (Job).

I realize that you are trying to make a point, but you should get your facts straight about what we believe before you try to stereotype us. I have learned that the hard way.

How have I stereotyped you? I have listed what I see as the things you believe. If I have got any wrong, please correct me.

I still do not see why a living hell is preferable to blissful non-existence at my own hand.

Going back to Job, in the end Job is restored by God and given a better life than he had even before hand

Yes - 'let this be a lesson to you - I can do what I want. I don't always reward good behaviour....here, have a whole load more stuff, some beautiful daughters and live for another 140 years'. Personally, I don't think I would find that this would erase the memory of the loved ones I had lost, just because God wanted to test me.