What do muslims believe in??????

Definition of terms and explanation of concepts

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Murad
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What do muslims believe in??????

Post #1

Post by Murad »

Hello All.

Ive noticed that nobody on this website really knows what Islam is?
And some ignorant people i've met on this website make assumptions about Islam without knowledge.

Well let me brief over islam to eliminate some "Assumptions" :)

A follower of Islam is called a muslim.

Now what exactly does a muslim follow:

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Like Jews, Muslims believe in 1 God, he is the sustainer, the all powerful, the all mercyful and the all just. Also like Jews, Muslims believe that the trinity cannot exist and it is pure blasphemy to God. But unlike Jews, muslims believe that Jesus is a prophet and a messenger, BUT the muslim account of Jesus is very different AND very similar at the same time. (How exactly click the link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_in_Islam

The Beliefs of Islam
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1.Who and what is God(Allah) in Islam?
No vision can grasp him, but his grasp is over all vision: He is above all comprehension, yet is acquainted with all things. Quran
There is only one true God and his name is Allah. Allah is all knowing, all-powerful and sovereign judge. Yet Allah is not a personal God, for he is so far above man in every way that he is not personally knowable. The emphasis of the God of Islam is on judgment and power, not grace and mercy. To the Muslim mind, calling God father means God connotes sexual relationship.
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2. Creations of Allah

Angels in Islam serve Allah’s will such as Gabriel delivering the Qoran to Mohammed. Angels do not perform any bodily functions (sexual, eating., etc) as they are created of light. Angels serve different purposes; each person has two recording angels who record his/her good or bad deeds

Jinn: Are spiritual beings created out of fire….who are ranked between angels and men and can be either good or bad. Satan was a Jinn and not a fallen angel according to Islam.

Satan: A Jinn who refused to fall prostrate before Adam after he was created. He is the leader of evil ones in the world
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3. Scripture

There are four inspired books in Islam: Quran, Torah, Ingil and Zabur. The Torah, Ingil and Zabur: “Books of Moses, The Gospel of Jesus, and Psalms of David� These are books mentioned in the Quran as God’s Word but most Muslims feel the current books are corrupt. For this reason Allah gave Mohammed the “Quran�.
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4. Prophets

In Islam God has spoken through numerous prophets down through the centuries, including Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammmad, he is the seal of the prophets (Being the last one)
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5. Last Days
The last days will be a time of Ressurrection and Judgment.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_vi ... t_Judgment
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JESUS(ISA) in Islam:



According to Islamic texts, Jesus was divinely chosen to preach the message of monotheism and submission to the will of God to the Children of Israel. Muslims believe that God revealed to Jesus a new scripture, the Injīl (gospel), while also declaring the truth of the previous revelations – the Tawrat (Torah) and the Zabur (Psalms)
"And behold! God will say: 'Oh Jesus, the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of God?' He will say: 'Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, though I know not what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden. Never did I say to them anything except what You commanded me to say: 'Worship God, my Lord and your Lord.' And I was a witness over them while I lived among them. When You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'" (5:116-117).


Muhammad in Islam:

Muhammad(Peace be upon him) in Islam is the "Seal of the prophethood"
Meaning after him, there shall be no other prophets(Although Jesus will return to earth)


He is only a man, a servant of God, powerless without god.
Praise be to god, the only deity worth worshiping.

Quotes from Muhammad:
"I am a Prophet of Allah but I do not know what will be my end."
"O Allah! I am but a man. If I hurt any one in any manner, then forgive me and do not punish me."
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To sum it up quickly.
Muslims believe in 1 god and that he is the only deity worthy of worship.
Jesus, Muhammad, Moses, Abraham etc... are Prophets and Servents of God.



Peace to all

Believers, Jews, Sabaeans and Christians -
whoever believes in God and the Last Day and does what is right -
shall have nothing to fear or regret.
-- Sura 5:69


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Woland
Sage
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jun 18, 2010 5:13 pm

Post #21

Post by Woland »

Hello Darias,
Darias wrote:I am not a Muslim, but I feel the need to respond this point about slavery that Woland brought up.
Certainly.
Darias wrote: To put things into perspective...

You won't find a single verse in the Bible that prohibits or abolishes slavery.
Precisely and, might I add, "so what"? How does that make any sort of relevant point against my arguments concerning the hateful and barbaric nature of Islam and its founder?

In fact, you're only hinting at the very real fact that Christians must make all sorts of complicated rationalizations to account for many elements that are distasteful to them - either that or ignore them altogether, which seems a popular method of dealing with the material in the OT.

If you are to believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, or even that ANY God would have anything at all to do with a book depicting him as a sadistic, mass murdering, petty, vengeful, jealous entity as is the case in the OT, you HAVE to believe that this God simply doesn't care about being seen as being just, except by a most primitive and repulsive notion of the word "just" which allows "God" to do absolutely whatever he wants, including unspeakable, insane crimes - I forgot, God can't do any crimes because.... He's God! And you know what? He makes the laws, and he doesn't break them!

Or...Maybe not. Maybe there's NO Biblical God, and this explains why the OT is representative of the morality of a most primitive desert tribal mentality, which condoned things which virtually all modern humans find repulsive.

If there was a loving God who inspired the Bible, you'd think he would have taken the time, maybe by cutting the boring genealogies a bit, to take one single line and simply say "Thou shalt not treat other human beings as if they were possessions" - but no, he most certainly did not. In fact, the deity depicted in the Old Testament carefully regulated the treatment of human beings as if they were possessions.

Let's see.
We are supposed to believe that a deity inspired or had something to do with the people who wrote: When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)
I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

If you want to take the position, like a few theists on this board do, that these stories are written by men, about their notion of "god", and that there's no reason to believe that they are inspired by anything else than the primitive morality notions of primitive desert-dwellers, then I would agree that this is a reasonable position.

In a sense, I think I see what you are trying to say. Correct me if I'm wrong, I wouldn't want to misrepresent your position.

Maybe something like: "all Abrahamic religions contain examples of distasteful actions attributed to "God" and "Holy people", get over it, it doesn't make them or any particular one worse than others." Is that about right?

I have a few questions, outside of why you seem to believe that you've exonerated Islam from being a fundamentally inadequate religion by implying that the Christian God allegedly condoned similar actions, is this: did Jesus recommend slavery?

Did he, or did he not, personally enslave many people after having killed their husbands and fathers?

Do Christians base their worldview on ramblings from a desert warlord?

Was Jesus a mass murdering, caravan-raiding, slave-trading, theocratic despot?

Do you really not see the massive difference this makes?

Why do you cherrypick the topic of slavery (one of the "least" disgusting items on the list of actions supported by vast numbers of Muslims throughout the Islamic world) when it's a drop of mud in a mudslide of the inhuman things done by Muhammad? It's not EVEN like he "just" enslaved all these people - he was a much more brutal man than a "mere" slave owner. Having an insane and brutal warrior as a founding "prophet" of a religion simply cannot be a good thing unless one acknowledges first that this man had no notion of the divine whatsoever, which is the only reasonable option given that there is nothing to suggest that Muhammad was anything more than a clever and manipulative, barbaric con man.

At any rate, I'm less than impressed with the excuses Christians usually make for the nonsense about slavery in the Bible (apart from straight up disowning, at the very least, the distasteful material in the OT as having anything to do with "God", which I find reasonable enough). Any God who finds the time to inspire all this inane nonsense regulating slavery yet can never be bothered to actually and unequivocally condemn it for the most vile act that it is, is quite obviously not worth worshiping. Such a deity would be a most malevolent deity who, by the simple and infinitely easy act of clearly and unambiguously prohibiting slavery, could have saved countless people from their tragic fates, yet chose to instead "inspire" "stories" about a flood where he genocides the entire planet (including the children and babies) except for one family, among other utter insanities including mauling down children with bears and killing the firstborn sons of Egypt in a supremely vile act of collective punishment.

How do you personally deal with this sort of material?

Do you dismiss it as being "not actually from God"?

If so, do you do so on the basis of your own moral compass, or is it because it's evident to you that all of these stories are man-made?
Darias wrote: At best, all the Bible says about it is to treat slaves well. At worst, it commands undying devotion and obedience of slaves. The following are New Testament examples:
I think you forgot my example but yours are pretty appalling too. What's your point?
Darias wrote: When the New Testament was written, slavery was common place; it would have been a liberal reform just to advocate good treatment of slaves.
Oh, I thought we were dealing with writings allegedly inspired by an eternal and perfectly moral and loving God and considered to be so by hundreds of millions of people here. My bad.
Darias wrote: These verses in part explain why slavery persisted for so long in the Bible Belt of the US. It was justified in the society because they believed it was the holy word of God. Elsewhere in the world, the Bible was also used to justify its abolition.
Exactly.

I can't be any more convinced that the Bible is full of nonsense which no loving deity would ever even possibly support and which has held back humanity for far too long, but thanks for trying.
Darias wrote: Obviously, it didn't matter what the Bible actually said - the society would do what it wanted by cherry-picking Holy verses in defense of their own cultural habits.
Yes. The Bible actually said nothing at all about slavery –owning other human beings- being immoral.

Ask yourself why a deity would inspire such a confusing book when he could easily have been much clearer (would you deny this?), and tell me what you come up with apart from the book being entirely made-up.
Darias wrote: Well, the Bible sounds very similar to the Qur'an according to what Murad said. However, one thing about Islam was the idea that it is virtuous to free slaves. Such ideas are absent from the Bible. One thing about Muhammad is a belief that he bought slaves from others in order to free them -- one of which he adopted as his own son.
What do you expect, that I should be impressed that Muhammad freed a few slaves when he was personally responsible for the enslavement of many people who saw their families killed by the ruthless "soldiers of Allah", among numerous other atrocities including torture and genocide?

I highly suggest that you go to the following website: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/015-slavery.htm to see that the reality of Muhammad and slavery isn't nearly as rosy as you seem to be implying here.

I don't necessarily agree with everything they imply, but note that "Allah" certainly doesn't seem bothered in the slightest by the fact that his "virtuous example" prophet is enslaving other human beings in his bloody conquests made in the name of an (ironically enough) omnipotent deity.
Darias wrote: As for "civilized" society. Slavery continued in European held African colonies even after the abolishment of slavery. The U.S. took a while to abolish it as well.
Do you think that it helps that people try to build castles of morality on foundations laid out by primitive desert-dwellers?
Darias wrote: One of the greatest champions of equality and the abolition of the slave trade, Thomas Jefferson, owned around 600 or so.
Not really qualified in US history so I can’t comment, but Thomas Jefferson isn’t even nearly as revered by Americans –at least I wouldn’t think- as Muslims revere Muhammad. There’s no alleged God who told people to respect the words and actions of Jefferson that I know of.
Darias wrote: And this wasn't because the Bible said it was okay. {The man was hardly religious -- Perhaps a Deist at best; he even re-wrote the gospels to make a more rational Jesus (no miracles).}

He, hypocritically owned slaves whilst raving against the immorality of slavery - because society said it was okay.

He's one of the fathers of modern Democracy -- and he owned a lot of slaves.
Yes.

What does this change to the fact that Muslims are building their morality notions around the life and ramblings of an ignorant desert looter?
Darias wrote: By the way, slavery while illegal, is alive and well. I live near a city -- one of the biggest slave trade hubs on the east coast of the U.S. Slaves are used for sex and labor. Most of them are women and children. And there is demand for them here, just as much as there is in many parts of the world. It is sad -- it is wrong -- but it is not a Muslim Creation, nor is it monopolized by Islamic countries.
No one has suggested this.

Darias wrote: [font=Impact]3[/font]
Woland wrote:Aren't you ashamed of the history of slavery in Islam? Why do you think that you consider it to be immoral in modern times? What made it alright for your prophet, on orders from a supposedly omnipotent entity, to enslave countless people?
You're acting like Murad approves of slavery. He said he does not.
Excuse me, sir.

Please retract this obviously false insinuation, and cease misrepresenting my clear position immediately.


My quote itself clearly implies that I understand that he doesn’t approve of slavery in modern times, and he had made it clear in the thread.
Darias wrote: Societies were different back then, that's why slavery was so prevalent.
Well, there’s something I could have never figured out on my own.

Slavery is just one of the unsavoury aspects of the founding figure of Islam.

Anyone pretending to be on orders from an omnipotent deity while enslaving and torturing fellow humans deserves nothing but contempt.

[quote=""Darias"]
Muhammad owned slaves, but bought many just to free them. Thomas Jefferson didn't free many of his -- only occasionally -- and that was to keep the rest obedient. Jefferson had his slaves flogged if they attempted escape.[/quote]

You certainly seem to make all sorts of comparisons which do not help you make any sort of relevant point.

Did Jefferson pretend that he was a great moral example?

Is he considered to be an actual prophet by hundreds of millions of people? Did this happen while I was sleeping?
Darias wrote: There is no verse in the Qur'an that commands enslavement of people. Muhammad owned slaves, but not because God told him to.
I fail to see how this is relevant at all. Here’s an interesting bit of information.
The Quran wrote: Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those (slaves) whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee"
"Allah"appears to have no problem whatsoever with slavery.
Darias wrote: As far as just this one issue is concerned, slavery is not unique to Islam - nor is it demanded of Islam - nor is it a tenant of the faith. And it is no longer legal in any Muslim country on earth - that I know of.
I do not find this relevant to the fact that vast numbers of Muslims consider a slaver and torturer to be a great virtuous moral example.

I just don’t see it.
Darias wrote: Islam is no more guilty of encouraging slavery than Christianity or other secular systems. So in this respect, just on this issue alone (not even counting the other claims Woland brought up) I think it is unfair to label the religion as "evil."
How about you address the other claims I brought up instead of "addressing" the one thing which society has FINALLY almost rid itself of after hundreds of years of clergy-approved slavery?

By the way, I absolutely consider Christianity to be evil to the extent to which it condones slavery and to the extent to which it apparently forces many Christians to downplay the horrors of owning human beings to reconcile the OT with their concept of a loving deity. ("It wasn’t the same back then", anyone?)

Saying "oh but look Christians and some secularists also approved of slavery" means nothing to me at all, and is a terrible way of making a case that Islam isn’t fundamentally a hateful, primitive religion based on the hateful and delusional ramblings of a most unpleasant man.

If anything, you’ve helped me show that Abrahamic religions are so filled with nonsense that decent human beings absolutely must look elsewhere than in "God’s word" to find that slavery is abhorrent.

-Woland

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