Criminalizing Christianity

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micatala
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Criminalizing Christianity

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Post by micatala »

In quite a number of threads, statements like the following have been made.
1John wrote:The mythizers are criminalizing Christians.
There has been much debate on the point of whether Christians, either in the U.S. or elsewhere, are being, have been, or will be 'criminalized'. I have responded using my own definition of 'criminalization', but I think it might make these debates more productive if we came to a common understanding of this word, or at least a more specific understanding of where the differences in our understanding of this word lie.

To start, I will offer the definition from Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.


criminalize: to make illegal: OUTLAW: to turn into or treat as a criminal.


To me, to criminalize Christianity would mean to make the practice of Christianity illegal.


To others, the interpretation seems to be that if certain practices or views that are identified with Christianity are made illegal, this is criminalizing Christianity.

I would disagree with this interpretation, unless the practices or views being made illegal were practiced by a majority of Christians and formed an essential part of the practice or doctrine of the religion. I also would add that the practices or views being made illegal were specific to Christianity, or the laws applied only to Christians.

For example, if religion X held that all blacks should be made slaves, and the law said that slavery was illegal, and this law applied to everyone and was enacted under the rationale that blacks are people and should have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else, then this would not be 'crimininalizing religion X'. It would criminalizing a certain practice that religion X would like to engage in. There is a difference in my book.


Having put in my two cents worth, I would ask others for their definitions, or views on interpretation.

What would it mean to criminalize Christianity?

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Post #2

Post by McCulloch »

On a related theme, why is it that some Christians complain about it?
One of Jesus' biographers wrote:[Jesus said,]"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
They call themselves Christians, followers of Jesus Christ, yet, their reaction to what they perceive as persecution does not seem to resemble what Jesus suggested (commanded?) that their reaction should be. Rejoice and be glad, indeed!
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
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The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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micatala
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Post #3

Post by micatala »

Well, I think this is a valid point. However, it is not really relevant to the thread. What I am hoping for is some amount of agreement on what it means to 'criminalize' a religion. I have put the question in terms of Christianity, but the definition should be such that when applied to other religions we also agree.

For example, if we outlaw Jihad and suicide bombings, etc., would this be considered by some the criminalization of Islam ( how's that for throwing in another contentious claim ;) )?


If the U.S. government takes over a particular piece of land that is sacred to a particular tribe and is central to their worship, would this amount to criminalizing the tribe's religion?

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Criminalizing? Not really.

Post #4

Post by melikio »

What would it mean to criminalize Christianity?
I think for most, it would mean to "outlaw" or "forbid" the practice of it.

Still, in America there are reasonable protections for the relgious and secular citizens (if the true spirit of the U.S. Constitution is observed and adhered to overall).

Not all of everything which any one person proposes to do to others (due to some moral dislike or religious view) is 100% acceptable. It has never been true, and never will be. Unless we destroy one another and only ONE lonely person is left standing, will there ever be a perfect consensus.

The U.S. Constitution (and other laws in this world), imposes some limits upon certain "religious" goals or personal moral goals and sandards. That is to say: Most people are allowed to observe and live by their own views and perceptions, as long as they do not infringe upon the rights, liberties or personal safety of others. Christianity (and various sects of it) are allowed the same protections under most western laws, as other ideologies are. Any which are poised to be a real threat to peace and stability are questioned or mitigated.

There are certainly CRIMINAL things which people do in the name of religion or morality; they are typically extremists. I have often said to certain members of this forum that "homosexuals" aren't here for "Christians" to control. And the lengths which some Christians would go (unfortuantely) to AFFECT the lives of homosexuals, borders upon or actually become true legal issues.

Legal/Constitutional action often becomes the last recourse, before violence is indroduced as an arbiter. And such legal actions do not typically seek to ban a religion or belief system, but to mitigate the actions taken by some who profess a particular "faith" or "moral view". There is nothing new about dealing with religious views, using secular methods; and it's probably why many people have the rights/liberties they now possess in this world.

Religion can be a good thing, but it is NOT always good for people, and any number of mindsets or practices which are objectively examined, will show what I point out. Nevertheless, the main point in all of this, is to say that some are poised to think/believe that THEIR particular religious or philosophical views/practices, SHOULD be imposed upon others... and it would be nothing to abide that, IF they did not adamantly act upon those specific "belief" to the detriment of others.

It is so often the case, that "Christians" want the LAW to align with their religious views. And it appears that what some call "criminilization" of Christianity, amounts merely to some "Christians" not getting THEIR WAY incorporated into corporate, legal and/or political policy.

There are a LOT of "Christian" things I could force upon other people, that are truly not LEGAL (or right) for me to impose. And while I may not be labeled a "criminal" for my actions, I could likely be taken to court in a civil suit (so that my behavior might be changed or corrected). Yet, the key is that I forced or imposed something, not that I was faithful to "Christianity" in my actions; the effect of what I would actually do, is what would be in question (not my religious motivation).

So, by no means have I personally seen substantial evidence, that any western culture or government has intended to prohibit the practicing of "Christianity", which would be my definition of "criminalizing" it. I HAVE indeed seen opposition to many of the actions taken by some who call themselves "Christian". Each case examined upon its own merit, seems reasonable to me as it related to such actions.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #5

Post by Jester »

McCulloch wrote:On a related theme, why is it that some Christians complain about it?
One of Jesus' biographers wrote:[Jesus said,]"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
They call themselves Christians, followers of Jesus Christ, yet, their reaction to what they perceive as persecution does not seem to resemble what Jesus suggested (commanded?) that their reaction should be. Rejoice and be glad, indeed!
I am 100% behind you on this one
As a Christian myself, I tend to belief that Christians (In certain countries) have gotten very spoiled compared to the early church. Each person should be more concerned with how to improve his/her own behavior than complaining about the wrongdoings of others. I feel that this should go double for Christians.

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Lost In the Sauce

Post #6

Post by melikio »

I am 100% behind you on this one
As a Christian myself, I tend to belief that Christians (In certain countries) have gotten very spoiled compared to the early church. Each person should be more concerned with how to improve his/her own behavior than complaining about the wrongdoings of others. I feel that this should go double for Christians.
Amen.

And another way to look at it is this:

This nation was founded upon "religious" freedom, not necessarily to give "Christian" people exclusive control over it.

I see many people arguing FOR such control, and that is one indicatorof how truly "spoiled" many Christians have become in the U.S.

The Constitution provides for a tremendous amount of freedom for all, but I don't see where the intent is to ever allow any ONE particualr doctrine or ideology dominate or gain complete control of those who live in this society.

I also believe that Jesus would address the hypocrisy of Christians seeking to gain more and more control (via politics and law); He was about love primarily, but that simple but foundational truth tends to get lost in the sauce, in this present day.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Re: Lost In the Sauce

Post #7

Post by Suzanne »

melikio wrote:
I am 100% behind you on this one
As a Christian myself, I tend to belief that Christians (In certain countries) have gotten very spoiled compared to the early church. Each person should be more concerned with how to improve his/her own behavior than complaining about the wrongdoings of others. I feel that this should go double for Christians.
Amen.

And another way to look at it is this:

This nation was founded upon "religious" freedom, not necessarily to give "Christian" people exclusive control over it.

I see many people arguing FOR such control, and that is one indicatorof how truly "spoiled" many Christians have become in the U.S.

The Constitution provides for a tremendous amount of freedom for all, but I don't see where the intent is to ever allow any ONE particualr doctrine or ideology dominate or gain complete control of those who live in this society.

I also believe that Jesus would address the hypocrisy of Christians seeking to gain more and more control (via politics and law); He was about love primarily, but that simple but foundational truth tends to get lost in the sauce, in this present day.

-Mel-

FREEDOM does not mean TO DISREGARD GODS LAW AND WAY TO LIVE ?????? OF COURSE ANYONE IS ABSOLUTELY FREE TO BELIEVE IN HAVE FAITH IN AND CONFESS ANYTHING OR ANYONE THEY CHOOSE AS THEIR LORD AND SAVIOR ... AND AS FAR AS I HAVE OBSERVED THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT MOST PEOPLE DO. THEY CHOOSE TO HAVE FAITH IN ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING OTHER THEN THE ONE LORD , ONE FAITH, AND ONE BAPTISM THAT MEANS the FATHER, THE SON, and THE HOLY SPIRIT . THREE THAT WITNESS IN HEAVEN and WE AS CHRISTIANS BELIEVERS IN THE CHRIST JESUS THAT HAS COME IN THE FLESH TESTIFY TO HIS REALITY AND TRUTH IN OUR LIVES BECAUSE WE HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM BECAUSE THE FAITHFULNESS OF THE FATHER GOD HAS NEVER FAILED US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Not Criminalizing

Post #8

Post by melikio »

FREEDOM does not mean TO DISREGARD GODS LAW AND WAY TO LIVE ??????
Are you implying that certain "Christians" are NOT diregarding "GODS LAW" when they hate and convince others to hate and mistreat homosexual people?

You know, if more "Christians" had handled many things in THE MOST EXCELLENT WAY (1Cor13) then many of the problems we see would not be so dire.
THREE THAT WITNESS IN HEAVEN and WE AS CHRISTIANS BELIEVERS IN THE CHRIST JESUS THAT HAS COME IN THE FLESH TESTIFY TO HIS REALITY AND TRUTH IN OUR LIVES BECAUSE WE HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM BECAUSE THE FAITHFULNESS OF THE FATHER GOD HAS NEVER FAILED US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Suzanne, sorry to tell you, that some think God has "failed" us (at least in some ways); and the argument is between Himself and those people, not you or I.

So, when someone says that they are living according to what they believe is "right", who are "you" to forcefully impede that? There are many things that people do, that I could wave the Bible a certain way, using X-interpretation and oppose them readily. THat has been done, and far too much really.

But if the Holy Spirit is truly affecting an individual, then a different kind of change takes place (from the inside out); not this forceful "religious" BS that has been handed down by human tradition. You see, while I believe the signature of God can be handed down through certain traditions, I in no way believe that the specific tradition itself MUST represent God; every "religion" wants God or the "highest power" to be represented in its practices/rules. But then again, I respect the fact that many perform certain rituals and hold to certain practices in order to express their faith and give honor to (their) God (or their concept of a god).

Not everyone is the "same", and not everyone who interprets the Bible sees it all in the same way. If laws which keep people from forcing THEIR "biblical Chrsitianity" upon others is "Criminalizing Christianity", then I suppose the term might apply, but I don't see protecting the rights and freedoms of those who do not adhere to certain religious precepts as "criminalizing Christianity".

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #9

Post by Grumpy »

melikio
If laws which keep people from forcing THEIR "biblical Chrsitianity" upon others is "Criminalizing Christianity", then I suppose the term might apply, but I don't see protecting the rights and freedoms of those who do not adhere to certain religious precepts as "criminalizing Christianity".
This is precisely where the problem arises.

I have friends who are Wiccan. They in no way worship any demons, demons, devils, angels, etc. These are strictly Christian perversions. Yet every time they try to gather they get protesters with signs reading "Do not suffer a Witch to live." There are some Christians who would rather follow that sign than not, others would start adding gays, liberals, Democrats and other "ungodly" people and would feel that to restrict them from doing so is interfeering and criminalizing Christianity. What happened in Germany during WW2 was in no way unusual except in size and the fact the world finally said "Enough!!!".

This type of...(I can't use any of the appropriate words here) is not a Christian. He does not follow Jesus's teachings, he is too busy removing splinters from other people's eyes and digging for scriptures that can be twisted to fit their own prejudice. They spend so much time butchering text from the Torah and so little attention is paid to Jesus, you would think they were Jewish!!! And if they break a few Commandments doing that, well, their targets are Queers after all. Sure, they can spout lots of scripture, but it is being used in a way that if Jesus were here he would scourge a few strips of skin off of those...(?) in the process of driving them from the Temple(to speak figuratively)!!!

All I can say is that if the theists DO turn out to be right, I can stand in front of Jesus and not be worried that he will say,"You saw me hungry, yet you fed me not!!!"

Grumpy 8-)

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Post #10

Post by Cathar1950 »

I know of a lot of people who have fed me. I hope they make it.
What if all you need to get to heaven is one person to vouch for you?
Unless you are to young. Minors are allowed a pass.
I should start my own religion. Make a friend religion.

P.S.
I don't think Jesus had any biographers.

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