Criminalizing Christianity

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micatala
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Criminalizing Christianity

Post #1

Post by micatala »

In quite a number of threads, statements like the following have been made.
1John wrote:The mythizers are criminalizing Christians.
There has been much debate on the point of whether Christians, either in the U.S. or elsewhere, are being, have been, or will be 'criminalized'. I have responded using my own definition of 'criminalization', but I think it might make these debates more productive if we came to a common understanding of this word, or at least a more specific understanding of where the differences in our understanding of this word lie.

To start, I will offer the definition from Webster's Ninth New Collegiate Dictionary.


criminalize: to make illegal: OUTLAW: to turn into or treat as a criminal.


To me, to criminalize Christianity would mean to make the practice of Christianity illegal.


To others, the interpretation seems to be that if certain practices or views that are identified with Christianity are made illegal, this is criminalizing Christianity.

I would disagree with this interpretation, unless the practices or views being made illegal were practiced by a majority of Christians and formed an essential part of the practice or doctrine of the religion. I also would add that the practices or views being made illegal were specific to Christianity, or the laws applied only to Christians.

For example, if religion X held that all blacks should be made slaves, and the law said that slavery was illegal, and this law applied to everyone and was enacted under the rationale that blacks are people and should have the same rights and freedoms as everyone else, then this would not be 'crimininalizing religion X'. It would criminalizing a certain practice that religion X would like to engage in. There is a difference in my book.


Having put in my two cents worth, I would ask others for their definitions, or views on interpretation.

What would it mean to criminalize Christianity?

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Re: Lost In the Sauce

Post #21

Post by Suzanne »

Jester wrote:
melikio wrote:I also believe that Jesus would address the hypocrisy of Christians seeking to gain more and more control (via politics and law)
Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. It seems that it's easier, according to human nature, to be angry about things that fit one's idea of wrong than to do things that fit one's idea of right. I'm really trying to fight this tendency in myself lately.
Better find out what is right and wrong to do I would say.. OR do you think that RIGHT IS FOR ANYONE THAT thinks they are RIGHT EVEN IF IT IS WRONG???

HOW does one LEGISLATE the MORAL RIGHTS OF WHAT GOD HAS ALREADY said IS RIGHT TO DO ... and DO NOT forget the forgiveness.. OF another.. and especially the enemy.. I can forgive the ONE THAT takes LIFE ON PURPOSE !!! BUT does that mean that THE PERSON that willfully and ON PURPOSE TOOK ANOTHER LIFE BY CHOICE.. SHOULD JUST BE FORGIVEN and NOT PAY FOR the CRIME DONE???? I don't believe so.. WILLFUL SIN WAS ALWAYS DEALT WITH and always will be. THAT is what WE HAVE COURTS FOR.. IF people never DID ANY CRIMES OF MURDER, STEALING, and ABUSIVENESS to bring HARM TO A PERSON PHYSICALLY THEN THERE WOULD BE NO REASON FOR COURTS JAILS LAWYERS POLICEMEN OR JUDGES..

What makes a PERSON walk away from THEIR ALCOHOLIC or DRUG ADDICTION.. OR WHAT CAUSES A PERSON TO REPENT and AT LEAST ADMIT HIS GUILT EVEN IF IT IS A MURDERER THAT IS SITTING ON DEATH ROW?? THAT HE KNOWS HIS TIME IS UP AND WANTS TO BE AT PEACE AND NOT BE AFRAID OF THE DEATH HE KNOWS IS HIS TO BEAR .. BECAUSE OF FACING HIS REALITY .. OF WHAT HE HAS DONE..

WELL WHEN ANYONE COMES TO UNDERSTAND WHAT WAS done for them . and why IT SHOULD MAKE ANY REPENT AND TURN TO CHANGE THEIR EVIL WAYS. YET NOT MANY DO .. NOT UNTIL IT IS TIME FOR DEATH TO COME and then they know.. BLESSED ARE those that FIND THE LORD GOD EARLY ON.. I THANK GOD FOR I FOUND GOD EARLY ON. and I have been BLESSED .. LIFE IS A JOURNY... TRULY IT IS A JOURNEY BACK TO WHERE WE HAVE COME FROM.. I HEARD A WORD at the age of 4 or 5 and I am back to that WORD I HEARD so long ago ..

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Who really knows? (unless they are God)

Post #22

Post by melikio »

Better find out what is right and wrong to do I would say.. OR do you think that RIGHT IS FOR ANYONE THAT thinks they are RIGHT EVEN IF IT IS WRONG???
The main problems are most prevalent amongst those who do not tend to their own hearts and minds, but rather spend more mental and spiritual energy than they likely should trying to affect/control the hearts and minds of others.

Right/wrong? Who do you ask; specifically, what human being? And how reliable are our own consciences?

Is it ONLY "Christians" who know what is "right", or are they "taught" to THINK they know? (It's usually the latter.)

The key (imho) is "grace". Not that it MAKES one right, but that it allows everyone REAL breathing room, instead of having us ALL breathing down one another's necks.

Has anyone noticed the very REAL spiritual, social and moral dilemas unfolding before their very eyes? (Lebanon/Israel.) Who can't feel for those suffering on ALL sides, especially those who are not "combatants"?

Which side is "right"? Do we really fathom the range of situations, conflict, emotions and perhaps spiritual inclinations? (I doubt it.) Still, all I know is that I cannot (in my heart) call anything "wrong", but the violence itself. So, that deeper understanding and ultimate understanding is between myself and God or fate itself.

Even for the "combatants", God's grace is warranted. Unless God enjoys the flowing of blood (which I don't believe He does), He must surely grieve what is going on the world over. And sometimes, the right/wrong of what we (as human beings) is no clearer than it is when trying to understand the undulations of a nation.

Suzanne, how good are you are really knowing what's "right" or "wrong"? (That question is rhetorical; I don't really need an answer.) For if one is HUMAN, it is clear that we can only attempt to do "right". If we are about doing "wrong", then we KNOW it is wrong and there is NO inner conflict. But to say what is/isn't absolutely right/wrong for ALL human beings (sometimes even ourselves) ranges from simple to impossible to know.

Through LOVE, I typically have a reliable and practical moral-compass running in real-time. Surely I'm not perfect in every thought and action, but I know that I have done "good" for the right reasons (in my heart), and more importantly try to do what is good/beneficial for others (even when I don't feel like doing it).

I'm tired of "Christians" (so thinking they are so "righteous"), judging/condemning others so readily . I don't care so much about their "motives", because it's nearly impossible to tell what those are (just like the reasons for KILLING we see all over the world); I just see them firing the "shots", hurting people...for WHAT?!! It's one giant confusing joke, the behaviors and actions what many do... IN THE NAME OF GOD. Jesus made that clear enough to me.

Words (even those that people throw around from the Bible/religion) are a dime a dozen; LOVING (others-oriented actions) are a precious commodity. I can't always SEE a "motive" and "words" are typically CHEAP... maybe more than worrying about what is right/wrong in others, how about being more concerned about doing what is LOVING toward others?

Show me a person who knows every right/wrong to do, and I'll show you someone who likely assumes to know too much.

I don't think that anyone is capable of being as "right" as they typically believe (because our actual knowledge is limited period). In the end, I believe that all any of us have is "grace" (some from others, and that which is afforded us by God Himself).

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #23

Post by StephTrex1 »

Before I became a christian I knew right from wrong, my parents taught me that... Believing the bible and Gods word and having excepted Jesus into my hart and life makes it easier to do right than before I knew him...
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Re: Who really knows? (unless they are God)

Post #24

Post by Suzanne »

melikio wrote:
Better find out what is right and wrong to do I would say.. OR do you think that RIGHT IS FOR ANYONE THAT thinks they are RIGHT EVEN IF IT IS WRONG???
The main problems are most prevalent amongst those who do not tend to their own hearts and minds, but rather spend more mental and spiritual energy than they likely should trying to affect/control the hearts and minds of others.

Right/wrong? Who do you ask; specifically, what human being? And how reliable are our own consciences?

Is it ONLY "Christians" who know what is "right", or are they "taught" to THINK they know? (It's usually the latter.)

The key (imho) is "grace". Not that it MAKES one right, but that it allows everyone REAL breathing room, instead of having us ALL breathing down one another's necks.
Has anyone noticed the very REAL spiritual, social and moral dilemas unfolding before their very eyes? (Lebanon/Israel.) Who can't feel for those suffering on ALL sides, especially those who are not "combatants"?
THE WAR between Israel and OUR WARagisnt the TERROIST is already been written of within the pages of the BOOK OF THE HOLY SCRIPTURES. TO NOT UNDERSTAND the WAR that is being foughtthis day is to be IGNORANT OF THE VERYWORD OF GOD THAT HAS ALREADY been written ORDAINED TO COME TO PASS AGAIN>> YES I DID SAY AGAIN FOR IT IS THIS GENERATION THAT is SEEING WHAT NEVER HAS BEEN SEEN BEFORE, YET OUR FATHERS HAVE ALREADY SEEN ...
Which side is "right"? Do we really fathom the range of situations, conflict, emotions and perhaps spiritual inclinations? (I doubt it.) Still, all I know is that I cannot (in my heart) call anything "wrong", but the violence itself. So, that deeper understanding and ultimate understanding is between myself and God or fate itself.
THERE it is ME ND GOD ,, OR FATE!!!! NO IT is BECAUSE OF GOD . NOT FATE BUT FAITH IN HIM .. I do not like the WAR AND DEATH ANYMORE TEN THE NEXT PERSON YET I KNOW THAT without SOMEONE FIGHTING TO KEEP FREEDOM RINGING THEN FREEDOM WILL BE A BY WORD FOR US ALL> AND THERE WILL BE NONE FOR US OR ANYONE AT ALL EVER.
AND ALL BECAUSE AMERICA SAID BY TO THE WORD GOD ALMIGHTY AND HIS TRUTH AND REALITY OF WHO WE AS A PEOPLE KNOW WHOM AND IN WHOM IS OUR CREATOR.


Even for the "combatants", God's grace is warranted. Unless God enjoys the flowing of blood (which I don't believe He does), He must surely grieve what is going on the world over. And sometimes, the right/wrong of what we (as human beings) is no clearer than it is when trying to understand the undulations of a nation.
Suzanne, how good are you are really knowing what's "right" or "wrong"?
I know that FOR ANYONE TO TAKE A CHILD OUT AND MOLEST THAT CHILD AND THE MURDER THATCHILD BY BURIEING THAT CHILD ALIVE IS A SICK DEPRAVED INDIVIDUAL AND DESERVES DEATH ?????? and I do not care who it is man woman or not MURDER IS MURDER WHEN A PERSON HAS NO SENSE OF WHAT THEY DID IS WRONG.




(That question is rhetorical; I don't really need an answer.) For if one is HUMAN, it is clear that we can only attempt to do "right". If we are about doing "wrong", then we KNOW it is wrong and there is NO inner conflict. But to say what is/isn't absolutely right/wrong for ALL human beings (sometimes even ourselves) ranges from simple to impossible to know.

Through LOVE, I typically have a reliable and practical moral-compass running in real-time. Surely I'm not perfect in every thought and action, but I know that I have done "good" for the right reasons (in my heart), and more importantly try to do what is good/beneficial for others (even when I don't feel like doing it).
I'm tired of "Christians" (so thinking they are so "righteous"), judging/condemning others so readily . I don't care so much about their "motives", because it's nearly impossible to tell what those are (just like the reasons for KILLING we see all over the world);
THE REASONS for that is and already has been written about. THE ANSWER IS there for any and all that want the answer. IT IS HATRED, JEALOUSY , ENVY, OF THEIR BROTHER.. AND WE CAN SEE IT IN OUR NEIGHBORS EVERY DAY.


I just see them firing the "shots", hurting people...for WHAT?!! It's one giant confusing joke,


It is not confusing at all WE GET CONFUSED ABOUT IT . BUT IT is not CONFUSING. FOR GOD is not the FATHER OF CONFUSION. it is we who get CONFUSED because we do not understand what we should understand.

the behaviors and actions what many do... IN THE NAME OF GOD. Jesus made that clear enough to me.

yes like the TERRORIST KILLING AND SLAUGHTERING THE JEW BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THE JEW SHOULD BE WIPED OUT FOREVER> WHEN THE JEWISH PEOPLE ARE WHY WE ALL HAVE LIFE AND A BETTER HOPE>>>>>>>>> and all BECAUSE THEY HAVE SO MUCH HATRED OF THEIR BROTHER THEY CANNOT EVEN SEE THE TRUTH OF WHO THEY ARE..
Words (even those that people throw around from the Bible/religion) are a dime a dozen; LOVING (others-oriented actions) are a precious commodity. I can't always SEE a "motive" and "words" are typically CHEAP...


YA WORDS CAN BE CHEAP REALLY CHEAP WHEN THEY ARE NOT BASED ON """"THE WORD"""""" HUH????????
maybe more than worrying about what is right/wrong in others, how about being more concerned about doing what is LOVING toward others?
YES LIKE WE SHOULD GO TO THE TERRORIST and say HEY // YOU KNOW WHAT WE LOVE YOU SO LETS JUST NOT BE AT WAR WITH EACH OTHER AND T YOU STOP SAYING THAT THE THE JEWISH PEOPLE CAN HAVE THEIR LAND AND ISRAEL CAN REMAIN A STATE AND ALL IS WELL AND ALL BECAUSE WELOVE EACH OTHER> AND YOU EREALLY BELIEVE THAT HAMAS AND THE TALIBAN AND ALL THESE HATERS OF AMERICANS AND ISRAEL WILL REALLY LISTEN TO THIS NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE DO CARE ABOUT THEM ALSO AND JUST WANT PEACE FOR THEM AS WELL AS ALL MEN TO BE FREE?????? SORRY IT WILL NOT HAPPEN .. SOME PEOPLE ARE JUST PLAIN EVIL ... and this is what the whole world is UP AGAINST NOW!!!!!!!!!!! IT BEGAN IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND IT IS ALL OVER THE WORLD AND IT WILL ALL COME DOWN RIGHT WHERE IT BEGAN> BETWEEN THE PEOPLE OF ISRAEL === JACOB and HIS BROTHERS THAT HATE HIM. because GOD HAS ALREADY GIVEN HIM PREFERANCE.. BECAUSE OF THE PROMISE HE MADE TO HIS OWN PEOPLE.. OR DO YOU NOT BELIEVE THAT HE CAME TO HIS OWN ????? FIRST!!!!!!!AND WAS IS AND ALWAYS will be the GOD OF ABRAHAM , ISAAC, and JACOB. HISTORY >>>>> that FEW BELIEVE OR UNDERSTAND..
Show me a person who knows every right/wrong to do, and I'll show you someone who likely assumes to know too much.
I DO NOT KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW. BUT I DO KNOW what GOD HAS SAID we should do and not do.. CAN WE EVER KNOW TO MUCH I DON'T THINK SO our problem is we never know enough and many do not know what they should know and what they do know they ignore because they do not want to give up what they think is fun or good and no problem to do .. THEY KNOW IT IS wrong to KILL AND DESTROY and MURDER BUT they still do it . WHY?? THEY KNOW IT IS WRONG TO COMMIT ADULTRY BUT THEY DO IT ANYWAY. THEY NOW IT IS WRONG TO HAVE SEX WITH THE SAME SEX OR THEY would not have HIDDEN IT FOR SO LONG FROM WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN SECRET>
I don't think that anyone is capable of being as "right" as they typically believe (because our actual knowledge is limited period). In the end, I believe that all any of us have is "grace" (some from others, and that which is afforded us by God Himself).
WELL IN THAT CASE YOU MAKE yourself GOD ALMIGHTY .

SORRY YOU MAY be able to correct me in my error and you may be able to JUDGE ME AND PUT N ME IN JAIL FOR A CT RIME I COMMIT YOU MAY BE ABE TO TAKE A GUN AND SHOOT ME DEAD . BUT ONLY GOD CAN MAKE THE RAIN TO FALL THESM NOW IN WINTER AND HAIL TO FALL AND ONLY GOD CAN HAVE MADE ME OR YOU .. FOR THERE IS A CREATOR OF ALL .. THAT HAS EVER BEEN IS WILL BE. and this earth and the heaven wil be here long after you or I are gone from this place.. and so will the JEWISH PEOPLE BE HERE BECAUSE WE ALL ARE because THEY WERE>>> ISRAEL GOD. SENT MOSES TO BRING OUT AND GIVE THEM THE LAND THEY HAVE YET TO HAVE ALL GOD HAS GIVEN THEM ..

-Mel-

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Re: Lost In the Sauce

Post #25

Post by Jester »

Suzanne wrote:Better find out what is right and wrong to do I would say.. OR do you think that RIGHT IS FOR ANYONE THAT thinks they are RIGHT EVEN IF IT IS WRONG???
Didn't mean to scare you like that. No, I definitely think that right and wrong have to exist as something other than our own concepts for them to be considered ethics at all. Therefore, doing what's right means more than believing you're right (even Hitler thought he was doing a good thing).
Beyond that, I can definitely agree that disciplining a person is often the best and most loving thing one can do for him or her, though I really don't believe in punishment so much as discipline myself.
So, yeah, it's a lot of work to learn more about the truth that God has for me, and to follow that amount that he's shown me so far- but worth it in ways I could never have imagined when I began following him.

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Re: Lost In the Sauce

Post #26

Post by Suzanne »

Jester wrote:
Suzanne wrote:Better find out what is right and wrong to do I would say.. OR do you think that RIGHT IS FOR ANYONE THAT thinks they are RIGHT EVEN IF IT IS WRONG???
Didn't mean to scare you like that. No, I definitely think that right and wrong have to exist as something other than our own concepts for them to be considered ethics at all. Therefore, doing what's right means more than believing you're right (even Hitler thought he was doing a good thing).
Beyond that, I can definitely agree that disciplining a person is often the best and most loving thing one can do for him or her, though I really don't believe in punishment so much as discipline myself.
So, yeah, it's a lot of work to learn more about the truth that God has for me, and to follow that amount that he's shown me so far- but worth it in ways I could never have imagined when I began following him.
You didn't scare me first of all.. :):) I do not scare easily when it comes to people.. I WOULD BE A LIAR to say that I could not be FEARFUL if somebody had a GUN IN MY FACE, or a knife at my throat YET MEN IN WAR and woman IN THE PLACES WHERE the chance for death can COME because of REAL DEATH and DESTRUCTION OF WARRING men in armies that war and fighting against one another because of ONE REASON OR ANOTHER usually if not MONEY it is just plain JEALOUSY, ENVY, AND HATRED. THE PLANET EARTH is FILLED with THESE FEELINGS AND WAYS OF MEN AND WOMAN HUH??? YET HERE IN AMERICA??? I DO BELIEVE THAT WE AS A PEOPLE DO FIGHT FOR ALL MEN ON THE EARTH TO BE FREE AS AMERICA HAS been FREE FOR WHAT OVER 200 YEARS.. AND IF YOU CONSIDER the SCRIPTURES THAT would be ALOT MORE YEARS ACCORDING TO THE LORDS TIME.. FOR I ALSO BELIEVE THAT AMERICA SERVES A PURPOSE FOR THE WHOLE OF THIS PLANET EARTH. along with ISRAEL OF THE MIDDLE EAST..

NO matter what I start talking about it always ENDS UP BACK TO the BIBLE AND SCRIPTURE. and that is because GOD IS A REALITY for us all NO MATTER how we WOULD RATHER NOT believe this. As many do DENY THIS REALITY and TRUTH ..

THE OLDER MUST become BOLD AND HONEST ENOUGH TO LET OUR CHILDREN and those YOUNGER THEN US the REAL HONEST TRUTH OF GOD'S WORD OF TRUTH.. I do not believe that MANY KNOW THE REAL TRUTH of what GOD ALMIGHTY HAS HAD WRITTEN FOR US ALL .. some how many many many have MISSED THE TRUTH > THAT WE ARE THE TEMPLE OF THE LORD. and WE ARE HIS VESSELS. and IT IS HE THAT RULES AND REIGNS AND WE MUST AND DO CHOOSE WHAT AND HOW our lives shall become AND BE IN THE END WE SHALL BOW OUR KNEE AND KNOW HE IS LORD ABOVE AND OVER ALL HAS BEEN IS AND FOREVER WILL BE. Men have again neglected to DO THE TRUTH and DO WHAT THE LORD GOD HAS SAID TO DO!!!! "SEEK YE FIRST THE KINGDOM OF GOD."

HOW is it that so many that went to seminary are IGNORANT OF THIS TRUTH THAT THE WORD OF GOD AND HIS LAW IS WRITTEN UPON OUR HEARTS.. HE BEING OUR LORD and WE BEING HIS SONS?????? AMONG OTHER TRUTHSTHAT HE HAS HAD WRITTEN SAID ANDDONE FOR ALL HIS CREATION?????????

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The Golden Rule (and other stuff)

Post #27

Post by melikio »

I do not believe that MANY KNOW THE REAL TRUTH of what GOD ALMIGHTY HAS HAD WRITTEN FOR US ALL
It has just gone too far, too many times... for human "peers" to be assuming control over others, in the name of God.

It's not that I have decided to walk the planet promoting my worldview as THE absolute right/wrong, but that through understanding and allowing for certain compromises, I've lived in peace and promoted the same.

Now, it is easy for people to come around (from nearly ANY intellectual-angle), and rationalize their views of "right" or "wrong"; religious and/or Bible believing people do this as much as any human beings do.

By FAITH (not pure logic or reason), the adherence to the Bible which many display makes sense, really. But it is reasonable and fair (just) to understand and say that not everyone can or will abide by what is (or is "said" to be) "biblical".

In a world where the "absolutes" which are evident to all, are NOT those absolutes which are "spiritual", then it makes sense that the more universally understood certain things are, the more acceptable they are as "truth".

For example, I agree and believe that love stems from that which is spiritual, but I cannot prove that, anymore than I can prove what I'm really like to anyone posting here. One must experience these things first-hand, to really KNOW what they are talking about... especially when it comes to judging and condemning other human beings (from one's "interpretation" or acceptance of the "Bible").

There are always those people who cannot stand being "questioned", and feel they MUST be "believed" (that no one should have the freedom of right to CHALLENGE them). I've met so many Christians like that, who start the worst arguments, and end up acting like bigoted jerks when they face a real challenge. Rather than accepting and realizing that not everyone (or even every "Christian") they engage is capable or necessarily willing to accept their worldview, they coerce, manipulate, and overwhelm others with their own "humaness" (they impose their wills).

It's not "love" (even by biblical standards), but they will call it that because it fits their agenda. And all the while, CLAIM that because it comes from "The Bible", it makes them somehow "right", in what they are DOING to others as a result.

This is the type of thing which many do, and call it "Christian". And they can no more call that kind of systematic manipulation of other human beings "Christian", than they could prove driving by (or sitting in) a "church" makes people "holier".

There are those who have tried HARD to believe the Bible ALL of their lives, and in the end could not continue believing it; how is that "really" explained (besides the usual rationale, and biblical verses applied in a typically failed effort to brush real questions aside).

I may not "agree" with every view of those ex-Christians who have become skeptical of the Bible (even anti-Christian), but I do know the kinds of questions they have, which every person cannot simply ignore for a lifetime (as short as they are).

Due to the uncompassionate and useless witness most "Christians" are willing to hand homosexual people, I nearly lost ALL faith in things most Christians readily take for granted. The people I've talked to since discovering the massive conflict between most "Christians" and "homosexuality", have shown me that they don't have as much understanding of people, as they often let on. I listen to their words, but even more carefully, I listen to the expressions from their hearts, by their words over time.

That is, it is one thing for a person to reject homosexuality based upon their biblical views, and another to sense how they REALLY feel about homosexual people in this world. And this is closely related to my primary motivation for NOT wanting to be homosexual (even trying to change it for many decades). As a result, the things many (straight) Christians say so easily (from their own minds), do not often prove to a homosexual person that they are worthy of trust and/or belief.

But, it seems this topic is about the alleged "Criminalizing" of Christianity. And I suppose that some Christians who are deeply rooted in their faith (worldviews), likely feel offended when they are opposed on certain points (as if they believe there should be no significant challenges to their "perfect" belief system).

And religion is "good", if I were to limit it to "one" word. But I think most people understand that not "everything" about religion, or some people's beliefs are necessarily "good". And that is where the allowance for "questions" (even certain restrictions) upon certain perceived "rights" have been evoked over time. "Christianity" (whatever it REALLY is), has evolved, been modified and adjusted many times throughout history; even to the point that in certain eras, many living today probably wouldn't recognize it as "Christianity".

I can see where some might indeed want everything to stay exactly the "same", and fear that their "faith" would be defeated as a result of "change". But how can such change/evolution be completely avoided? What is to "common", "universal" or "eternal" denominator which takes Christianity through time/space?

For me, the answer is "love". And my view of "Christian" faith (which I try to keep "passive", for the most part) is that it is IDENTIFIED almost completely by the attributes of "love" which have been universally understood as "love", from the original "then"... to the present "now".

Honestly, I cannot relate to many of the biblical stories, unless they are interpreted so I might relate to them. But I have learned over a little time, that many people's interpretations either cannot be trusted implicitly, or that they are driven by agendas having little or nothing to do with love. While that wouldn't destroy my "faith" in a God per se, it does show me that I likely MUST question "The Bible" itself. Some are offended and even frightened by that, and I understand (I used to believe every word of it myself), but then came a time where real questions came, that didn't seem to have the answers I needed to "believe" in it (the Bible) IMPLICITLY.

And while I remain more skeptical about all of it than I did at the beginning, I do sense something good and important about it; I simply don't believe that everything someone says it true, just because it fits a few spaces of the puzzle in my heart and soul. As long as no one is poised to IMPOSE their "religion" upon myself or others, then I see nothing particularly "criminal" or "threatening" about it. On the other hand, most people can detect when they are being unjustly and unnecessarily coerced, compelled or oppressed; that they would take "action/s" over time to mitigate those things, should not be unexpected.

I think the Golden Rule, is profound and effective in a world like this one.

-Mel-
"It is better to BE more like Jesus and assume to speak less for God." -MA-

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Post #28

Post by topaz »

McCulloch wrote:On a related theme, why is it that some Christians complain about it?
One of Jesus' biographers wrote:[Jesus said,]"Blessed are those who have been persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward in heaven is great; for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you."
They call themselves Christians, followers of Jesus Christ, yet, their reaction to what they perceive as persecution does not seem to resemble what Jesus suggested (commanded?) that their reaction should be. Rejoice and be glad, indeed!

Amen !

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Post #29

Post by Cathar1950 »

I am in to experimentations. I love small communities and large cities. I love the woods and the smell of rain and I love the sound of music, laughter, and the smell of restaurants. I like diversity. I think it is healthy and allows for social change or evolution.
Life is just practice, trial and error. We as humans hope that historical knowledge lets us learn from our mistakes and not give up.
I dislike the idea of a one world order. It is like farming with just one crop that makes the guy buying it from you rich or the guy buying it from him. But if your crop fails he is just going to buy someone else's crop.
So a one world order sounds like a scam.
But the ones that seem to fear it the most are often Christian that want a one world order, theirs.
Where was I ?
Diversity, no persecution of anyone, food and drink for all, a warm bed, and books. TV, cable, computers and the phone should fit in our warm caves and you should have dinner guests at least 3 days a week.
I bet I am forgetting something, pubic transportation?

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Post #30

Post by Jester »

Cathar1950 wrote:But the ones that seem to fear it the most are often Christian that want a one world order, theirs.
Unfortunately, this has been my experience as well.
Frankly, I think we overestimate the power government and social programs. Whatever happened to individual people with individual choices to be good or bad?

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