Atheists... Why not just promote moderation and integration.

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Baz
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Atheists... Why not just promote moderation and integration.

Post #1

Post by Baz »

I think a lot of fundamentalist atheists are trying to go a step too far.

Fundamentalist Christians thought that the world needed to be taught that their religion was the only way, and imposed it by force on those that would not believe.
Muslims and undoubtedly other religions still do this in some places where they can get away with it.

In my opinion and hopefully somebody agrees with me, this attitude is no way to act in modern times.
(I note that there could have been some positives with regard to forming strong societies in the past but that’s not my point.)
:-k
My question is, why do sensible well educated atheists continue to attempt convert people away from their religion altogether?
Rather than promoting integration and moderation.
This would have the effect so often wished for by many atheists of reducing the amount of religious interference in their lives.

Even to the simplest of minds (i.e. mine) this has to be a more realistic approach.
Heads brick walls and all that.


Ps. I interpret fundamentalist, as the belief that one holds the sole source of objective truth.
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"

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Re: Atheists... Why not just promote moderation and integrat

Post #2

Post by McCulloch »

Baz wrote: why do sensible well educated atheists continue to attempt convert people away from their religion altogether?
Rather than promoting integration and moderation.
Note that I am aware of my own risk of making the True Scotsman fallacy, but here I go anyway.

Sensible well educated atheists do not attempt to convert people away from their religion. They try to get people to seek truth through rational methods, which we believe will lead people away from all forms of supernaturalism and superstition. Apart from the fundamentalists and theocrats, whose religions we see as having a harmful effect on society, we sensible atheists have no driving compulsion to convert people away from their religion, our interest is merely philosophical and academic.

Sensible atheists are also secularists. We believe that the public institutions of our societies should neither promote nor impede the practice of religion. Moderation and toleration are our bywords with regard to religions which themselves are moderate and tolerant.
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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Baz
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Re: Atheists... Why not just promote moderation and integrat

Post #3

Post by Baz »

McCulloch wrote:
Baz wrote: why do sensible well educated atheists continue to attempt convert people away from their religion altogether?
Rather than promoting integration and moderation.
Note that I am aware of my own risk of making the True Scotsman fallacy, but here I go anyway.

Sensible well educated atheists do not attempt to convert people away from their religion. They try to get people to seek truth through rational methods, which we believe will lead people away from all forms of supernaturalism and superstition. Apart from the fundamentalists and theocrats, whose religions we see as having a harmful effect on society, we sensible atheists have no driving compulsion to convert people away from their religion, our interest is merely philosophical and academic.

Sensible atheists are also secularists. We believe that the public institutions of our societies should neither promote nor impede the practice of religion. Moderation and toleration are our bywords with regard to religions which themselves are moderate and tolerant.

I am talking about true Scotsmen or the best of the best that absolutely confident empirical evidence only atheist, who probably has an IQ to die for.
(Note to theists; I personally know theists with exceptional IQ’s one of my best friends holds a doctorate and is a born-again Christians, so please do not think I am implying anything regarding theist intelligentsia.)

The ones that you get links to visit on YouTube. Those that go out of their way to voice their views for the good of mankind. In a similar way to some fundamentalist religious people.
The sort of thing I am on about occurs on this site from time to time, most commonly out of frustration no doubt. Don’t think that I dislike it from an entertainment point of view it makes good reading, but it must be clear to so many of these people that they are encouraging the digging of trenches by those who believe surrender is not an option.
For interesting, strong debate it’s good, like at this site but I still can’t figure if some people actually want to affect change or just exaggerate.

(As always all the above is only my personal opinion etc.)
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"

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Post #4

Post by Question Everything »

I already answered this with another post:
Let me put it this way.

I consider the most important question humanity can answer is "How can we make life better for everyone on the planet?". IMHO, Religion has done a horrible job of answering that question, yet for reasons which I have tried and tried to understand and have been unable to, people keep turning to it for the answer - even when it is very clear that it just simply does not work.

Why is this???

I just don't get it!!!

Hello!!! Look at the history of the world over the past 2,000 years. Most people lived very short lives in disease ridden poverty. Only in the past hundred years or so did we have large numbers of people with standards of living exceeding that of medieval kings. What do we have to thank for this miracle? Christianity? No. The only time that ruled the world was during the Middle Ages, and that made things worse for people than what they had before. Islam? No. This turned Arabs from being one of the most advanced and prosperous societies on the Earth to one of the poorest and most backward.

More than anything else, the one thing that has made life better for everyone on the planet has been science.

How do we get this message across? We are facing serious problems with overpopulation, climate change, a crashed economy, and a world that still has many living in poverty. We need to be working on solutions to these problems. Fundimentalist religions are doing more harm than good and need to be scrapped.
As far as moderate religions go, I really don't have a problem with them as long as they do not go against science.

BTW, I am not saying that science has absolute truth. I am saying that if you want to know how the physical universe operates, it is the only valid approach you can take, and if you don't understand how the physical universe operates you are at high risk of making some very bad decisions that could cause a great deal of harm.
"Oh, you can''t get through seminary and come out believing in God!"

current pastor who is a closet atheist
quoted by Daniel Dennett.

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Post #5

Post by Baz »

Question Everything wrote:I already answered this with another post:
Let me put it this way.

I consider the most important question humanity can answer is "How can we make life better for everyone on the planet?". IMHO, Religion has done a horrible job of answering that question, yet for reasons which I have tried and tried to understand and have been unable to, people keep turning to it for the answer - even when it is very clear that it just simply does not work.

Why is this???

I just don't get it!!!

Hello!!! Look at the history of the world over the past 2,000 years. Most people lived very short lives in disease ridden poverty. Only in the past hundred years or so did we have large numbers of people with standards of living exceeding that of medieval kings. What do we have to thank for this miracle? Christianity? No. The only time that ruled the world was during the Middle Ages, and that made things worse for people than what they had before. Islam? No. This turned Arabs from being one of the most advanced and prosperous societies on the Earth to one of the poorest and most backward.

More than anything else, the one thing that has made life better for everyone on the planet has been science.

How do we get this message across? We are facing serious problems with overpopulation, climate change, a crashed economy, and a world that still has many living in poverty. We need to be working on solutions to these problems. Fundimentalist religions are doing more harm than good and need to be scrapped.
As far as moderate religions go, I really don't have a problem with them as long as they do not go against science.

BTW, I am not saying that science has absolute truth. I am saying that if you want to know how the physical universe operates, it is the only valid approach you can take, and if you don't understand how the physical universe operates you are at high risk of making some very bad decisions that could cause a great deal of harm.

Yes I have seen your quote in another post but I was more trying to point out that, in the same way you have no problem with moderate religion, religious people would have a lot less problem if some atheist also used a more moderate approach.

With regard to the notion that religion is bad and science is good just look at history.
:blink:
There could be arguments put forward for some of the good in religion and harm done by science.

Devil’s advocate; we are now overpopulated; use all the wrong materials and energy sources, thereby causing significant problems for future generations. We keep people alive even when they actually want to die and don’t even mention cars.
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"

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Post #6

Post by Question Everything »

Baz wrote: Yes I have seen your quote in another post but I was more trying to point out that, in the same way you have no problem with moderate religion, religious people would have a lot less problem if some atheist also used a more moderate approach.
I don't know what moderate approach I can possibly take with someone who is convinced that God is going to destroy the world within a few decades or who thinks that this world is not important because is what happens after you die that is really important or who thinks that homosexuality should be punished by death.
Baz wrote: With regard to the notion that religion is bad and science is good just look at history.
:blink:
There could be arguments put forward for some of the good in religion and harm done by science.
What I am talking about is the overall balance. There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is called the Middle Ages. Look at how people lived then. Not a pretty picture.
Baz wrote: Devil’s advocate; we are now overpopulated; use all the wrong materials and energy sources, thereby causing significant problems for future generations. We keep people alive even when they actually want to die and don’t even mention cars.
1. If we had a better understanding of and appreciation for science, these problems would be greatly reduced, if not eliminated entirely. The problem is that most people (in the U.S. at least) have a very poor understanding of science. It is something like 45% (depending on how the question is asked) of all American adults who believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Something like two thirds either reject evolution outright or are not sure about it. Most believe that there is real controversy with the validity of global warming. I could go on and on.

2. Given a choice between living in the 11th century or living in the 21th century, I'll take the 21th century hands down - cars and all. No brainer.
"Oh, you can''t get through seminary and come out believing in God!"

current pastor who is a closet atheist
quoted by Daniel Dennett.

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Post #7

Post by Autodidact »

Baz wrote: Yes I have seen your quote in another post but I was more trying to point out that, in the same way you have no problem with moderate religion, religious people would have a lot less problem if some atheist also used a more moderate approach.
I believe history shows just the opposite. When Atheists were quiet and respected the rule of religion, they were beheaded, imprisoned, oppressed,forced to participate in religion and despised. Now that Atheists are speaking out for reason, they are beginning to get some respect.

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Post #8

Post by Baz »

Autodidact wrote:
Baz wrote: Yes I have seen your quote in another post but I was more trying to point out that, in the same way you have no problem with moderate religion, religious people would have a lot less problem if some atheist also used a more moderate approach.
I believe history shows just the opposite. When Atheists were quiet and respected the rule of religion, they were beheaded, imprisoned, oppressed,forced to participate in religion and despised. Now that Atheists are speaking out for reason, they are beginning to get some respect.
I believe you can find all the things you mention everywhere in history, some Christians go on about persecution incessantly.

The reality is more likely that historically we have been unbelievably cruel in all aspects of life, politics and religion.

Anybody speaking out for reason commands respect from many religious and none religious persons alike.

The fact remains that what progress has been made (for whatever reasons) has been and probably will remain gradual.

I have the only true way sounds very familial. :whistle:
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"

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Post #9

Post by Baz »

Question Everything wrote:
Baz wrote: Yes I have seen your quote in another post but I was more trying to point out that, in the same way you have no problem with moderate religion, religious people would have a lot less problem if some atheist also used a more moderate approach.
I don't know what moderate approach I can possibly take with someone who is convinced that God is going to destroy the world within a few decades or who thinks that this world is not important because is what happens after you die that is really important or who thinks that homosexuality should be punished by death.
Baz wrote: With regard to the notion that religion is bad and science is good just look at history.
:blink:
There could be arguments put forward for some of the good in religion and harm done by science.
What I am talking about is the overall balance. There was a time when religion ruled the world. It is called the Middle Ages. Look at how people lived then. Not a pretty picture.
Baz wrote: Devil’s advocate; we are now overpopulated; use all the wrong materials and energy sources, thereby causing significant problems for future generations. We keep people alive even when they actually want to die and don’t even mention cars.
1. If we had a better understanding of and appreciation for science, these problems would be greatly reduced, if not eliminated entirely. The problem is that most people (in the U.S. at least) have a very poor understanding of science. It is something like 45% (depending on how the question is asked) of all American adults who believe that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old. Something like two thirds either reject evolution outright or are not sure about it. Most believe that there is real controversy with the validity of global warming. I could go on and on.

2. Given a choice between living in the 11th century or living in the 21th century, I'll take the 21th century hands down - cars and all. No brainer.

Let’s imagine that all believers in every religion across the world are delusional, for the most part those delusions have built the world we have today. I consider myself immensely fortunate in being exactly where and when I am, but regardless of the view you hold about that everything in the past was necessary to arrive at this point.

So where do we go from here?

Let’s now imagine that there is a small group of people that have unique access to the real truth how do they go about converting, healing, teaching, (however you would like to put it) a world full of delusional people?
:-k
\"Give me a good question over a good answer anyday.\"

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Post #10

Post by Furrowed Brow »

Baz wrote: Let’s now imagine that there is a small group of people that have unique access to the real truth how do they go about converting, healing, teaching, (however you would like to put it) a world full of delusional people?
:-k
We start by encouraging people not to imagine that. Instead we encourage them to imagine a way of thinking that stands a better chance of not leaving them in the common position of accessing real untruths and nonsense.

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