Dealing with mass shootings

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Dealing with mass shootings

Post #1

Post by otseng »

We've heard about the mass shooting at Sandy Hook elementary today.

What can be done to curb mass shootings in the US?

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Post #2

Post by otseng »

Here's my thoughts:
- Ban fully automatic and assault weapons.
- Mandatory concealed weapons permit for all gun ownership.
- All schools should have an armed police officer, even in communities where there is no history of violent crimes.
- Curb culture of violence in movies, TV, games, entertainment.
- Stop viewing killing people as a solution to problems.
- No leniency for mass murderers. Go straight to jail with lifetime sentence.
- Families, churches and schools need to speak out and curb violence.
- Fundamentally is a moral issue. Only a transformation of the heart can deal with our nature to sin.

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Post #3

Post by otseng »

Mother Jones has a good article on mass shootings:
A Guide to Mass Shootings in America

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Post #4

Post by Nickman »

I propose that we adopt what works as seen in countries such as Italy and Japan. You cannot even carry a knife in these countries bigger than your thumb and it works well enough that this stuff doesn't happen. In my time in these countries I had zero worry about violent crime. In Italy I did constantly worry about petty theft and was always locking my belongings up, but I never worried about my family's safety or my own. In Japan, I never worried once about petty crime even.

Now I know we have the second amendment and it wouldn't go away easily, but any constitution is never 100% iron clad. If we think that ours is infallible and never to be changed then we would be naive. There is always a better way and our society always changes.

I propose taking away the second amendment (I can hear gasps already) and enforcing stricter punishments for those found with weapons of any kind. I also propose that all schools have a checkpoint for all entrants. It may suck but our children do not deserve what happened today in Connecticut. When the twin towers fell, security went to maximum levels for airports, so why not do the same for our most important persons, the children? I have seen how a ban on weapons has worked in other countries and it has led to a lower crime rate especially in Japan. They also are lower in almost every other category .

Here is more. The stats speak volumes. There is a better way. The US has more shootings than any other country. In one day, the US has more shootings than Japan does in one year. They are doing something right. We are staying in the past and it is affecting our children. [/url]

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Post #5

Post by Darias »

Nickman wrote: I propose that we adopt what works as seen in countries such as Italy and Japan. You cannot even carry a knife in these countries bigger than your thumb and it works well enough that this stuff doesn't happen. In my time in these countries I had zero worry about violent crime. In Italy I did constantly worry about petty theft and was always locking my belongings up, but I never worried about my family's safety or my own. In Japan, I never worried once about petty crime even.

Now I know we have the second amendment and it wouldn't go away easily, but any constitution is never 100% iron clad. If we think that ours is infallible and never to be changed then we would be naive. There is always a better way and our society always changes.

I propose taking away the second amendment (I can hear gasps already) and enforcing stricter punishments for those found with weapons of any kind. I also propose that all schools have a checkpoint for all entrants. It may suck but our children do not deserve what happened today in Connecticut. When the twin towers fell, security went to maximum levels for airports, so why not do the same for our most important persons, the children? I have seen how a ban on weapons has worked in other countries and it has led to a lower crime rate especially in
Japan. They also are lower in almost every other category .

Here is more. The stats speak volumes. There is a better way. The US has more shootings than any other country. In one day, the US has more shootings than Japan does in one year. They are doing something right. We are staying in the past and it is affecting our children. [/url]

This conversation is boiling down to this type of logic:

Image


If you make guns illegal, you disarm law-abiding citizens. People intending to do harm will do harm whether guns are legal or not. They can still obtain weapons too.

Someone from China stabbed 22 children today. Are we to ban knives now as well? Will the ban include steak knives and box cutters?

Politicizing a tragedy like this to promote ban of guns from people who hunt or use them in self defense is the real tragedy here. And to just go ahead and copy paste the Constitution-- WOW what a precedent... once you do that nothing stops you from cutting out the 7th amendment (well the provision in the NDAA act already does that).

Do you know how many lives are saved because guns are legal? This woman saved her life and her baby's by shooting at the intruders trying to break down her door, rape her and steal her things.

I studied in the UK where guns are banned. People are not allowed to defend themselves and have to flee their own home.

The day after I left the "peaceful" society of London, my friend was stuck in her own home fearing for her life whilst mobs of punks and idiots set London ablaze. Normal police did not even have weapons and there wasn't enough to even stop the rioters. Shop-owners could not defend their stores and homeowners could not defend their lives. Decent law abiding people were helpless and their own police were toothless to stop the chaos. Shops I had been in were burned to the ground, but she is alive because looters didn't break into her house.

You're not even allowed to have pepper spray in the UK! How are you, a defenseless helpless person supposed to defend yourself from armed thieves and rapists and home intruders? You are at their mercy and have to wait 20 minutes for the royal federal police to arrive with their batons.

Gun laws keep decent people from owning weapons. They may make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons but, in the event that occurs, Knife crime skyrockets


If one or more of those teachers had been armed, most of those kids might be alive today.

If a few people on the plane that crashed into 9/11 had been armed with knives or a gun, the terrorists may not have achieved their goal.

Using this tragedy to promote statist policies like increased government security is rediculous. We could have a checkpoint at every college and every port and we could check all the cargo and have road blocks. We could have marshal law and it would keep everyone safe... but where do you draw the line? That would bring the economy to a halt. Imagine if everyday you had to go to work or school, it was like going to the airport...

Plus, disarming the people and letting big government have all the guns, and letting government decide which parts of the bill of rights it likes is not exactly comforting. North Korea wants to ban guns too... for the "general safety" of their people of course.


Ben Franklin, qtd. in Wikiquote wrote:People willing to trade their freedom for temporary security deserve neither and will lose both
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Post #6

Post by Nickman »

Darias wrote:
This conversation is boiling down to this type of logic:

Image
This is a misconception of what I am saying and not looking at the entire picture.

If you make guns illegal, you disarm law-abiding citizens. People intending to do harm will do harm whether guns are legal or not. They can still obtain weapons too.
You're leaving out the fact that this "law abiding citizen" who was 24 had legal ways to obtain the weapons he used against his own mother and the children in her classroom. Don't forget about the 7 other adults. People can obtain weapons but making it harder and making the repercussions stiff is a huge deterrent as is seen in Japan which has a complete ban on such yet is the lowest in all crimes.

Someone from China stabbed 22 children today. Are we to ban knives now as well? Will the ban include steak knives and box cutters?
Come on Darius, you need to show that this is a prevalent occurence. A once in a blue moon occurence is not a red flag that the laws in place are deficient. People who are set on doing a certain task such as this or the Connecticut shooting will do it if opportunity arises. Making it harder on them to do such is a huge start and the proper thing to do.

Politicizing a tragedy like this to promote ban of guns from people who hunt or use them in self defense is the real tragedy here. And to just go ahead and copy paste the Constitution-- WOW what a precedent... once you do that nothing stops you from cutting out the 7th amendment (well the provision in the NDAA act already does that).
It should never be an easy task to amend our constitution, but our constitution (which I have sworn to uphold and do) is not inerrant. Our society is constantly changing and I don't think that our founding fathers intended for the constitution to remain unchanged if, by its laws, evil is able to run rampant. People tend to think that our constitution is iron clad, 100%, all that we ever need forever. This is just not true, especially when we see countries such as Japan who have the strictest gun and knife laws, and their crime rate is lower than anywhere else on the planet. Tradition is our worst enemy here.
Do you know how many lives are saved because guns are legal? This woman saved her life and her baby's by shooting at the intruders trying to break down her door, rape her and steal her things.
Far less than those that are killed by them, by legal gun owners.

I studied in the UK where guns are banned. People are not allowed to defend themselves and have to flee their own home.
I wouldn't even entertain the idea that a person cannot defend themselves in their own home.

The day after I left the "peaceful" society of London, my friend was stuck in her own home fearing for her life whilst mobs of punks and idiots set London ablaze. Normal police did not even have weapons and there wasn't enough to even stop the rioters. Shop-owners could not defend their stores and homeowners could not defend their lives. Decent law abiding people were helpless and their own police were toothless to stop the chaos. Shops I had been in were burned to the ground, but she is alive because looters didn't break into her house.
I do not propose that government officials cannot carry weapons. This would be giving the offenders the upper hand.

You're not even allowed to have pepper spray in the UK! How are you, a defenseless helpless person supposed to defend yourself from armed thieves and rapists and home intruders? You are at their mercy and have to wait 20 minutes for the royal federal police to arrive with their batons.
I think that this is an example of how not to do it. Weapons should be banned from the general public, IMO, yet other means of self defense should and would be implemented. By making weapons hard to get and giving stiff penalties for possesion you have discouraged many people already. This has already been evidenced in Italy and Japan who already implement such actions. There is no reason for a human in modern society to carry a weapon which can be turned against anyone of us in a moment of laps, depression, hatred or what-have-you.

Gun laws keep decent people from owning weapons. They may make it harder for criminals to obtain weapons but, in the event that occurs, Knife crime skyrockets
Gun laws do infringe negatively on those who are competent to possess weapons, but if it saves even one child or person, it is worth it. Boo hoo, if someone can't carry their shotgun in their truck.

If one or more of those teachers had been armed, most of those kids might be alive today.
If Adam Lanza would have been denied the right to carry a weapon more children would be alive today.
If a few people on the plane that crashed into 9/11 had been armed with knives or a gun, the terrorists may not have achieved their goal.
If people were educated and less naive about the possibility of hi-jack situations then the whole scenario may have been diverted. This is all what I call, shoulda coulda woulda.

Using this tragedy to promote statist policies like increased government security is rediculous. We could have a checkpoint at every college and every port and we could check all the cargo and have road blocks. We could have marshal law and it would keep everyone safe... but where do you draw the line? That would bring the economy to a halt. Imagine if everyday you had to go to work or school, it was like going to the airport...
Im in the military, it is like that.
Plus, disarming the people and letting big government have all the guns, and letting government decide which parts of the bill of rights it likes is not exactly comforting. North Korea wants to ban guns too... for the "general safety" of their people of course.
Our government could take the entire nation very easily, yet it doesn't. That would be self defeating.

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Post #7

Post by Armed Citizen »

I'd say we are at a crossroads here.
On one side we got people like me thatown guns, carry guns and love their firearms. :2gun:

On the other hand you have people that fear guns, misunderstand guns and distrust us with the guns. :nervous:

Why the two sides? The idiots in the middle that misuse guns and the law.
:evil:


We gonna have to reach a point where we have no guns or everyone is armed.
This crap only happens at places where you can't carry. Includin Fort Hood. Why can't no soldiers carry a sidearm full time on base? Really? #-o

People that wanna break the law will do so regardless of laws on the books. They don't walk up to the front of two stores and choose the one that doesn't have a no guns sticker. They may be criminals but they ain't stupid, they choose the one that advertises no way to defend itself.

The other side is that we was given the right to bare arms as a defense against police, military and Government. I hope to never see a day that that comes but ya never know. If they outlaw my assault rifles then I will give em up like a good boy.

We'll see were it goes from here.
:2gun: :usa: Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.
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Post #8

Post by otseng »

Nickman wrote: I propose that we adopt what works as seen in countries such as Italy and Japan. You cannot even carry a knife in these countries bigger than your thumb and it works well enough that this stuff doesn't happen.
In Japan, they don't even really have a standing military. If the government is not heavily armed, it's easier to expect for the people to not be armed also. If the US government is willing to give up its military (or at least dramatically decrease its size), then unarming US citizens will be more realistic.
In my time in these countries I had zero worry about violent crime.
Never been to Italy, but I have visited Japan. The culture there is much different from the US. From what I can tell, unlike the US, everyone is very respectful and cordial with each other.
Now I know we have the second amendment and it wouldn't go away easily, but any constitution is never 100% iron clad.
My belief is that taking away the second amendment will spark a revolt.
I also propose that all schools have a checkpoint for all entrants.
If you mean adding metal detectors, this is not very feasible either. And I don't think the cost/benefit ratio is worth it. Most schools are cash strapped. Even in my kid's well-to-do school, parents have to provide basic school supplies (pencils, pens, paper) for the school.
The US has more shootings than any other country.
Controlling guns would only be addressing the symptoms (which I'm not against some sort of gun control). The underlying problem is that we have a culture of violence and view killing people as a way to solve problems. Do we honestly think if kids watch over 200,000 graphic violent acts on TV by age 18 that it will not affect them? Add in movies and video games and they will be more prone to commit violence. I'm not proposing that we ban all violent TV shows, movies, and video games. But, somehow we've got to offset this culture of the glorification of violence.

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Post #9

Post by otseng »

Armed Citizen wrote: This crap only happens at places where you can't carry.
I'm not so keen on allowing weapons at schools by civilians. I don't mind the police being armed, but I think we should keep the current rules of no weapons in schools.
Includin Fort Hood. Why can't no soldiers carry a sidearm full time on base? Really? #-o
Never knew that. It that also true for other military bases?

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Post #10

Post by Armed Citizen »

otseng wrote:
Nickman wrote: I propose that we adopt what works as seen in countries such as Italy and Japan. You cannot even carry a knife in these countries bigger than your thumb and it works well enough that this stuff doesn't happen.
In Japan, they don't even really have a standing military. If the government is not heavily armed, it's easier to expect for the people to not be armed also. If the US government is willing to give up its military (or at least dramatically decrease its size), then unarming US citizens will be more realistic.
In my time in these countries I had zero worry about violent crime.
Never been to Italy, but I have visited Japan. The culture there is much different from the US. From what I can tell, unlike the US, everyone is very respectful and cordial with each other.
Now I know we have the second amendment and it wouldn't go away easily, but any constitution is never 100% iron clad.
My belief is that taking away the second amendment will spark a revolt.
I also propose that all schools have a checkpoint for all entrants.
If you mean adding metal detectors, this is not very feasible either. And I don't think the cost/benefit ratio is worth it. Most schools are cash strapped. Even in my kid's well-to-do school, parents have to provide basic school supplies (pencils, pens, paper) for the school.
The US has more shootings than any other country.
Controlling guns would only be addressing the symptoms (which I'm not against some sort of gun control). The underlying problem is that we have a culture of violence and view killing people as a way to solve problems. Do we honestly think if kids watch over 200,000 graphic violent acts on TV by age 18 that it will not affect them? Add in movies and video games and they will be more prone to commit violence. I'm not proposing that we ban all violent TV shows, movies, and video games. But, somehow we've got to offset this culture of the glorification of violence.

I know short answers are tabbo rouund here but....


Right on brother. That was wicked nice insight to the problem and I think you my have effected my idea on this lil subject a tad bit.

Thanks
:2gun: :usa: Firearms are second only to the Constitution in importance; they are the peoples' liberty's teeth.
- George Washington :2gun: :usa:
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