We must believe in the Messiah? Since when? Says who?

[Avoice]

YOU MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS TO BE SAVED. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE YOU ARE GOING TO HELL.
Really? Said who?

The concept of the Messiah comes from the Hebrew Scriptures. It is the Hebrew Scriptures that tell us what the messianic age will be like and gives a description of the messiah. It also tells us what man can do to save his self. The words which tell us this are attributed to God speaking them. God told us what we must do to save ourselves and BELIEVING IN JESUS is not it.
and in the entire corpus of the Hebrew Scriptures NO WHERE does it say we must BELIEVE IN the messiah. Nothing even remotely close. If the existance of man hung on BELIEVING in Jesus God would have told us. He told i
us how we are to have a bowel movement but this he forgot?

If BELIEVING in Jesus is the key to life then the Holy Scriptures could be tossed in the trash. Because without knowing that then everything else is pointless.
\
BELIEVING IN JESUS is a Christian concept. The church redesigned the messiah to fit their doctrine so this is no shock.

God would never demand such us a rediculous demand. Why? Because when the Messiah arrives we wont need to believe he is the Messiah. WE WILL KNOW HIM BY HIS WORK.

Christians accept Jesus as their messiah. They settled for a do-nothing messiah.
JESUS HAD HIS CHANCE. HE DID NOTHING. THE JEWS WIL NEVER EVER...EVER ACCEPT JESUS AS MESSIAH. THE REASON WHY JESUS HASNT RETURNED IS BLAMED ON THE JEWS BECAUSE IT IS SAID IN THE CHRISTIAN TESTAMENT THAT JESUS WONT RETURN UNLESS THE JEWS ACCEPT HIM . Haaa...now thats how you perpetuate a lie and keep the people believing after one dies! No...the reason he hasnt returned is because the second coming is a Christian concept. And it was never mentioned until jesus was dead or they knew he was going to die. if his death saves the world why didnt his apostles ever mention it beforehand.
So go ahead and blame tthe jews for jesus not showing up. either that or face the truth and that is too much to bear. If you choose to believe the Jews are holding up the show then youll wait an eternity and day because the Jews wont accept him. And its the Jews who have the final word. as long as they are waiting for the Messiah the whole world must also wait. its their Messiah.
Christians want Jesus to be the Messiah so bad that Jesus could tell them he wasnt and they wouldnt believe him

[Checkpoint]

YOU MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS TO BE SAVED. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE YOU ARE GOING TO HELL.
Really? Said who?

The concept of the Messiah comes from the Hebrew Scriptures. It is the Hebrew Scriptures that tell us what the messianic age will be like and gives a description of the messiah. It also tells us what man can do to save his self. The words which tell us this are attributed to God speaking them. God told us what we must do to save ourselves and BELIEVING IN JESUS is not it.
and in the entire corpus of the Hebrew Scriptures NO WHERE does it say we must BELIEVE IN the messiah. Nothing even remotely close. If the existance of man hung on BELIEVING in Jesus God would have told us. He told i
us how we are to have a bowel movement but this he forgot?

If BELIEVING in Jesus is the key to life then the Holy Scriptures could be tossed in the trash. Because without knowing that then everything else is pointless.
\
BELIEVING IN JESUS is a Christian concept. The church redesigned the messiah to fit their doctrine so this is no shock.

God would never demand such us a rediculous demand. Why? Because when the Messiah arrives we wont need to believe he is the Messiah. WE WILL KNOW HIM BY HIS WORK.

Christians accept Jesus as their messiah. They settled for a do-nothing messiah.
JESUS HAD HIS CHANCE. HE DID NOTHING. THE JEWS WIL NEVER EVER...EVER ACCEPT JESUS AS MESSIAH. THE REASON WHY JESUS HASNT RETURNED IS BLAMED ON THE JEWS BECAUSE IT IS SAID IN THE CHRISTIAN TESTAMENT THAT JESUS WONT RETURN UNLESS THE JEWS ACCEPT HIM . Haaa...now thats how you perpetuate a lie and keep the people believing after one dies! No...the reason he hasnt returned is because the second coming is a Christian concept. And it was never mentioned until jesus was dead or they knew he was going to die. if his death saves the world why didnt his apostles ever mention it beforehand.
So go ahead and blame tthe jews for jesus not showing up. either that or face the truth and that is too much to bear. If you choose to believe the Jews are holding up the show then youll wait an eternity and day because the Jews wont accept him. And its the Jews who have the final word. as long as they are waiting for the Messiah the whole world must also wait. its their Messiah.
Christians want Jesus to be the Messiah so bad that Jesus could tell them he wasnt and they wouldnt believe him

[brianbbs67]

Ok, what is the debate question? Seemed like a rant with many debatable topics. I do agree that the christian church , in general, has reinterpreted to their liking. So, is this a "no suffering servant" thing?

[Checkpoint]

Moses is who! (and when)

Deuteronomy 18:

15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
16 For this is what you asked of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”

17 The Lord said to me: “What they say is good.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their fellow Israelites, and I will put my words in his mouth. He will tell them everything I command him.
19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.

Acts 3:

17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders.
18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.

19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus.

21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’

[Elijah John]

Moses is who! (and when)
18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer.
’

[/quote]

Key word "prophet". "Prophet" not "Messiah". At least in the "Old" Testament. Yes, the book of Acts calls Jesus the "Messiah" but where exactly do "all the prophets" say that the "Messiah would suffer"?

And where in the Hebrew Bible is John 3.16 rooted ?

Forgiveness of sin in the Hebrew Bible comes from repentance and turning to YHVH, not from believing in the Messiah, whatever that means.

Avoice is right, such a notion is a Christian invention which has no real roots in the Hebrew Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

Re: We must believe in the Messiah? Since when? Says who?

Nobody can be forced to believe anything so no, one does not have to believe in the Messiah.

One does however have to belive in the Messiah to be a Christian. Why? Since When? Since the word "Christian" was invented. Why ? Because the words "christ"and "messiah" are synonyms; they mean the same thing (anointed). So a "christian" is by definition a follower of The Messiah and visa versa. Does one have to believe Jesus of Nazareth was the promised CHRIST/MESSIAH ? Only if one chooses to be a follower/a disciple of that one.

Can one follow Jesus as a good man mistakenly labelled posthumously as "the Chrsit" ? Theoretically, but only of one's idea of "follow" involves ignoring most of what he (Jesus) is recorded to have said on the subject.

JOHN 4:25 - Berean Study Bible

worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth.” 25The woman said, “I know that Messiah” ( called Christ) “is coming. When He comes, He will explain everything to us.” 26Jesus answered, “I who speak to you am He"

JEHOVAHS WITNESS (Christian)

To read more please go to other posts related to...

RELIGION, CHRISTIANITY and ...DENOMINATIONS

[DavidLeon]

To answer the questions in your heading, the only we who must believe in the messiah would be specifically the disciples, that is, those adhering to the discipline, of the messiah in question. Since 33 C.E. when Jesus was resurrected and the Christian congregation was established. Says who? John 3:16; 6:47.

YOU MUST BELIEVE IN JESUS TO BE SAVED. IF YOU DONT BELIEVE YOU ARE GOING TO HELL.
Really? Said who?

Hell is a pagan myth adopted by apostate Christianity. Translated from the Hebrew word sheol, as found, for example, at Psalms 139:7-8; Amos 9:1-2, where God is, in effect, in hell. Hell is an Old English word that means to cover or conceal and so was used in older translations like the KJV to translate sheol. The common grave or resting place of the dead. The early Christians didn't believe in hell. They believed that sin equals death, and so the wages of sin were paid and one was acquitted of sin upon death. (Romans 6:7) There is a resurrection of the unrighteous. (Acts 24:15)

The concept of the Messiah comes from the Hebrew Scriptures. It is the Hebrew Scriptures that tell us what the messianic age will be like and gives a description of the messiah. It also tells us what man can do to save his self. The words which tell us this are attributed to God speaking them. God told us what we must do to save ourselves and BELIEVING IN JESUS is not it.
and in the entire corpus of the Hebrew Scriptures NO WHERE does it say we must BELIEVE IN the messiah. Nothing even remotely close. If the existance of man hung on BELIEVING in Jesus God would have told us. He told i
us how we are to have a bowel movement but this he forgot?

You yourself said that the concept of the messiah comes from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Zechariah 9:9 (10:9 Septuagint) χαῗρε σφόδρα θύγατερ Σιων κήρυσσε θύγατερ Ιερουσαλημ ἰδοὺ ὁ βασιλεύς σου ἔρχεταί σοι δίκαιος καὶ σῴζων αὐτός πραῢς καὶ ἐπιβεβηκὼς ἐπὶ ὑποζύγιον καὶ πῶλον νέον

English translation (NWT) footnote in parenthesis: "Be very joyful, O daughter of Zion. Shout in triumph, O daughter of Jerusalem. Look! Your king himself comes to you. He is righteous, yes, saved ("yes, experiencing salvation"; or, "yes, having been saved"; or, "and, being victorious." Hebrew, wenohsha, passive, as in Deuteronomy 33:29 and Psalm 33:16; LXX, "and saving," or, "and bringing salvation"; Latin, et salvator, "and savior."); humble, and riding upon an ass, even upon a full-grown animal the son of a she-ass."

Also see Isaiah 53:1-12; Daniel 9:24-27.

If you suggest that the Hebrew Scriptures don't present the concept of a specific messiah to deliver the chosen people from destruction then what was his purpose?

If BELIEVING in Jesus is the key to life then the Holy Scriptures could be tossed in the trash. Because without knowing that then everything else is pointless.

The key to everlasting life. The Hebrew Scriptures have many prophecies regarding the specific messiah in question. They knew when he would come and they knew who he would be. There is only one person in the history of mankind those genealogies pointed to and none of the Jewish religious leaders of Jesus day disputed that. The genealogies were meticulously kept for that purpose and once they along with the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E. no one else could legally make that claim.

BELIEVING IN JESUS is a Christian concept. The church redesigned the messiah to fit their doctrine so this is no shock.

I don't think that is even remotely possible. In addition to the extremely comprehensive prophecies of the Christ recorded in the Hebrew Scriptures there were also the many accounts of the unfaithfulness of the Jews. They were totally honest about their shortcomings. But also the apostasy in Jewish thinking was heavily influenced by Alexander The Great during the summer of 332 B.C.E. when he was welcomed by the Jews and his influence, through Greek philosophy, would have a remarkable effect on them; their culture, fashion, language, literature and religion. A gymnasium was built in Jerusalem; the games held there were popular with the Jewish youth and centered around Greek religion. Later the same influences would have the same effect on Christians with the political influence of Constantine the Great in 325 C.E.

But more significant regarding the Christians and Jesus specifically was the difficulty he had with the Jewish religious leaders of his day. The Pharisees had begun to envy the influence and prestige of the Levite priests. When the temple of Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 C.E. it put an end to the priesthood and made way for them to spread their apostasy much the same as the Christians did later in the middle of the 4th century C.E. but until then it was the Christians who carried on with the favor of Jehovah.

God would never demand such us a rediculous demand. Why? Because when the Messiah arrives we wont need to believe he is the Messiah. WE WILL KNOW HIM BY HIS WORK.

Apparently not.

Christians accept Jesus as their messiah. They settled for a do-nothing messiah.
JESUS HAD HIS CHANCE. HE DID NOTHING. THE JEWS WIL NEVER EVER...EVER ACCEPT JESUS AS MESSIAH. THE REASON WHY JESUS HASNT RETURNED IS BLAMED ON THE JEWS BECAUSE IT IS SAID IN THE CHRISTIAN TESTAMENT THAT JESUS WONT RETURN UNLESS THE JEWS ACCEPT HIM . Haaa...now thats how you perpetuate a lie and keep the people believing after one dies! No...the reason he hasnt returned is because the second coming is a Christian concept. And it was never mentioned until jesus was dead or they knew he was going to die. if his death saves the world why didnt his apostles ever mention it beforehand.

In the Hebrew Scriptures? His apostles were made aware of it at the appropriate time.

So go ahead and blame tthe jews for jesus not showing up. either that or face the truth and that is too much to bear. If you choose to believe the Jews are holding up the show then youll wait an eternity and day because the Jews wont accept him. And its the Jews who have the final word. as long as they are waiting for the Messiah the whole world must also wait. its their Messiah.
Christians want Jesus to be the Messiah so bad that Jesus could tell them he wasnt and they wouldnt believe him

Jesus and most of the early Christians were Jews and none of them would blame anyone for a missing messiah because he wasn't missing. However, even they or the Jews don't have the final word on the matter, Jehovah does. And he has made it clear. The messiah did arrive and the Jewish religious leaders charged him with blasphemy, but since they had no authority from the Romans to put him to death they changed it to sedition. (Matthew 26:63-66; Mark 14:61-64; John 18:29-19:16)

They nailed him to a stake because they wanted a political / military King to deliver them from their oppressors. That will never happen, as the Hebrew Scriptures point out.

Ezekiel 37:21, 22: "Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all." Israel is a republic and no line of David can be ascertained except Jesus.

Isaiah 2:2-4: "It shall come to pass in the end of days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established as the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say: 'Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths.' . . . And they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more." Certainly doesn't sound like Israel to beat their swords into plowshares and where the house of the God of Jacob used to reside there is now an Islamic shrine.

[Overcomer]

Avoice wrote:

The concept of the Messiah comes from the Hebrew Scriptures. It is the Hebrew Scriptures that tell us what the messianic age will be like and gives a description of the messiah.

That's true. Several of the prophetic books in The Tanakh refer to mashiyach (transliterated as the Messiah, meaning the anointed one). When Jewish scholars translated it into Greek (called the Septuagint, around 250 B.C.), they translated "mashiyach" as "Christos", meaning "the anointed one". The Jews who wrote the Brit Chadasha (New Covenant) in the mid to late first century A.D., took the title from the Tanakh itself, specifically from Jer. 31:31-34. Verse 31 in the Orthodox Jewish Bible reads:

Hinei, the days come, saith Hashem, that I will cut a Brit Chadasha (new covenant) with Bais Yisroel, (the people of Israel), and with Bais Yehudah (the people of Judah)

The Jewish writers of the Brit Chadasha understood Yeshua of Nazareth to be the person prophesied as the Messiah in the Tanakh, the anointed one who would introduce a new covenant.

Consider Psalm 2 in which Adonai calls the Messiah his son. This is where the term "Son of God" originates. So by the first century, Jews had been reading in the Tanakh about the coming Messiah, the Son of God, and his promise of salvation for hundreds of years.

Avoice wrote:

BELIEVING IN JESUS is a Christian concept. The church redesigned the messiah to fit their doctrine so this is no shock.

Yes, believing in Jesus is a Christian concept -- that comes straight out of the Old Testament as Jesus fulfilled multiple prophecies pertaining to the Messiah, the Son of God who would introduce a new covenant. In fact, there are hundreds of such predictions. See here for just a few:

https://www.gordonconwell.edu/blog/jesu ... testament/

So Christians didn't "redesign the Messiah" to fit our doctrines as you claim. Rather, they recognized Jesus as the fulfillment of O. T. prophecies.

Avoice wrote:

THE JEWS WIL NEVER EVER...EVER ACCEPT JESUS AS MESSIAH.

There's really no need to shout which is what you're doing when you use all caps. There were many Jews in the first century who accepted Jesus as the Messiah. And there have been Jews who have accepted him down through the centuries. There are Jews who believe in him today. I know some of them. I wish you did, Avoice, because they have brilliant testimonies which I know they would love to share with you.

Avoice wrote:

So go ahead and blame tthe jews for jesus not showing up.

I don't blame the Jews for Jesus not returning yet. I don't know any Christians who do. You believe so many of the wrong things about Christians. Your arguments seem to be based on your own personal misunderstanding of us rather than on the reality of what we believe and why we believe it.

Avoice wrote:

God told us what we must do to save ourselves and BELIEVING IN JESUS is not it.
and in the entire corpus of the Hebrew Scriptures NO WHERE does it say we must BELIEVE IN the messiah.

Let's look at what the Old Testament says about salvation. We know that the Lord is righteous and only the upright will see his face (Psalm 11:7). We know that all human beings are sinners and, as such, NOT upright, as our righteousness is as filthy rags to God (Is. 64:5). We know that our filthy-rag righteousness will not deliver us from our transgressions (Ezekiel 33:12b). In fact, no man can by any means redeem another man or give to God a ransom for himself; only God can redeem us (Psalm 49:8,9, 16). In other words, there is nothing we can do to earn our salvation.

That's why the Israelites had to provide animal sacrifices. It is shed blood that makes an atonement (Lev. 17:11). The animal's innocent life (Ex. 12:5) was transferred to people and the people's sins were transferred to the animal. The first shed blood to cover sin occurred in Genesis when God himself killed animals to cover Adam and Eve with their skins (Gen. 3:21). But such sacrifices only covered sins temporarily and they had to be repeated over and over again.

Given that this is what God asked the Jews do to re: their sin and religious Jews supposedly hold God and the Old Testament in high regard, why don't they do that now? How does the modern Jew deal with his sin if he isn't providing sacrifices according to the Lord's instructions in Leviticus and Exodus?

But let's go back to the verse in Psalms that says only God can redeem us. He chose to do it in the person of Jesus Christ who, as God Incarnate, provided the unblemished lamb that paid for our sins once and for all. His shed blood makes the atonement described in Lev. 17:11 and Ex. 12:5. He exchanges his righteousness for our sins.

This is. of course, foreshadowed by the Passover as well as by Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac. In both cases, God provided the lamb and the deliverance. So, in the Old Testament, we have Israel looking forward in faith to the Coming One, the Messiah, the one who would introduce a new covenant, the one who would do the redemptive work and provide deliverance as God promised.

Avoice wrote:

God would never demand such us a rediculous demand. Why? Because when the Messiah arrives we wont need to believe he is the Messiah. WE WILL KNOW HIM BY HIS WORK

And we do indeed recognize his work as the unblemished sacrifice of God just as described in the Old Testament.

Avoice wrote:

Christians accept Jesus as their messiah. They settled for a do-nothing messiah.

I think dying for the sins of humankind is something, not nothing.

Bottom line: Jesus, the Messiah, as portrayed in the New Testament and understood by historic orthodox Christians, is indeed rooted in the Old Testament.