The kingdom of God.

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Checkpoint
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The kingdom of God.

Post #1

Post by Checkpoint »

Some seem to think it is entirely future, while others give the impression they are always thinking of it as present, and to not be looking at the future in kingdom terms at all.

Jesus had much to say about the kingdom, including this:
Luke 16:

6 The Law and the Prophets were until John; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is preached, and everyone is being zealously urged into it.
So, where do you stand as to whether it is present, future, or has both a present and a future aspect?

On what basis?

According to which scriptures?

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Re: Re:

Post #951

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tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am how can you say that some of us have added to what is written in that verse?
Because by believing in something else that happens to those raised to the resurrection of judgment -- specifically, annihilation -- those in question are adding something to the description of what happens to those raised to this resurrection of judgment beyond what is written. They don't mean to do that, and may not even be aware of it, really, but that is the effect. There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Must disagree for reasons stated.
Sure you do. But those reasons are flawed, as previously stated. And contrived, really, although possibly not by you. I'm surely not accusing you of anything.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).

Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Or do you not believe that when He returns, there will be people on the earth who are yet living?
Of course I do. Some will join those on Jesus's right, and the others will join those on Jesus's left. Not sure of the purpose of this question, but no matter.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
And He says all tombs, which means there is no other possibility. So all are raised, to one or the other, and we can easily infer that annihilation is not a third possibility.
He does say all tombs, yes. But just because a person is resurrected does not mean that a person remains in that state for all eternity.
Yes, fair enough, but there is nothing -- nothing -- in the Bible to indicate, either implicitly or explicitly, that anything beyond being raised to the resurrection of judgment happens to those on Jesus's left, and, as stated many times now, the indisputable fact that this punishment is eternal explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment. To say otherwise is much as if to say that when I used to punish my son for something he did way back when (when he was a kid), he was not really present for that punishment and did not therefore endure it, which is just -- frankly -- absurd.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Some are resurrected to life (eternal life); and some are resurrected to judgment (condemnation).
Sure. See above.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am So what are they judged/condemned TO?
That question itself needs to be redirected. The more appropriate questions are:
  • 1. What are they excluded FROM?
  • 2, Where are they then relegated to in order to endure this judgment/condemnation?
The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth. I know, I know, you want me to say eternal life, so you can present yet again the dichotomy between that and eternal death, which means -- to you (and others) -- eternal non-existence and thus annihilation. But this is not what "eternal death" is. Eternal death is eternal separation from Christ in a place (symbolized by a lake and described figuratively as a place of outer darkness and of extreme sorrow and anguish -- weeping and gnashing of teeth) where God dispenses no grace, where only His judgment (symbolized by fire), having been rendered once and for all, remains. This death is not a wiping from existence or taking away of consciousness for any length of time, much less for eternity. This death is an eternal existence under the effect of the final Judgment, the "fire" that is unquenchable, "their worm that never dies."

The answer to the second question is, of course, away from the new heaven and new earth and Christ Himself, outside the kingdom. Outside the camp, as in Leviticus 13:45-46 and Numbers 5:3-5 foreshadow.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm Condemned to what?
See the answer to question two above. Jesus says, in Luke 13, in a question regarding the number of people who are/will be saved and if that number is small, "...many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and to knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us,’ then He will answer you, ‘I do not know where you come from.’ Then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our streets.’ But He will say, ‘I tell you, I do not know where you come from. Depart from me, all you workers of evil!’ In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth..." Again, nothing about any wiping from existence, and inferentially quite the opposite.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
PinSeeker wrote:
  • "...if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly..." 2 Peter 2:6
  • "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
Peter and Jude both see the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah as a "type" (a diving foreshadowing) of judgment by fire on the last day. The Old Testament is filled with types and shadows of ultimate realities to come, and the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 is one of them. The permanent and irrevocable judgment pronounced upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is what is foreshadowing of eternity, not the literal razing of the cities.
Pinseeker, why not both?
Because the types/foreshadowings in the Old Testament are not literal with regard to the ultimate fulfillments. As I said, the example of the literal razing of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah is meant to show the permanence of God's final Judgment of and upon those who are unrepentant of their sin.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
Tam wrote:"And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt 10:28
PinSeeker wrote:As I said to Checkpoint above, the word "destroy" is in the Greek ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi), and it means in the context here not to be annihilated physically or wiped from existence, but rather to be brought to ruin spiritually. Paul and James use the same word in the same way, and Peter and Jude, too. And what we see from Paul, Peter, and even John in Revelation regarding "destruction" as rendered in English (ἀπώλεια, or apōleia, in the Greek) is very much the same, but in the form of a noun rather than a verb.
Here is the meaning of the word...
I well know the meaning of the word, Tammy, and I know too (as you should, and do, I think) that depending on the context where the word is found, it has different meanings. Congruent meanings, but different in scope. What I said above stands.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm So nothing that has been shared (about annihilation, destruction) conflicts with what is written.
So yes, what you have shared surely regarding annihilation and destruction surely does conflict with what is written in the specific passages I have related.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
Tam wrote:(See also Rev 20:9, because fire comes down from God from heaven and devours 'gog and magog'; and the meaning of the word translated as "devour" includes "utterly consume; destroy, by fire"...
PinSeeker wrote:Yes, actually, God Himself is the consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, and in Revelation 20:9, Jesus). This is talking about God's final Judgment. It is final, inescapable, irrevocable, and everlasting.
Well, utter consumption; destruction sounds irrevocable and everlasting to me.
Absolutely. Did I not just say this here, as well as many a time previously? But as I have said, the consumption and destruction is not to be understood as a wiping from existence entirely or annihilation, but rather spiritual ruin, which on its face may sound trivial but most assuredly is not.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
PinSeeker wrote:This is true of all those who believe in annihilation: reading something into it that is neither said nor implied in any way, which should not be done, not necessarily because I say so, but because Jesus Himself warns against it in Revelation 22: "I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book..." [22:18]
A - God's Word is Christ.
LOL! Well yeah, that's right. Absolutely. God's Word made man... personified. From Genesis 1 to Revelation 22. :D
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm B - no one added to the verse from John (as I think you admitted at the top of this post, right?)
Well, again, not consciously or intentionally, but that is most definitely the effect.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
tam wrote:Second, if you are saying that some of us are 'adding' to what is written, then how would you not be doing the same? Because the verse in John does not state that some of the dead are resurrected to life, and some of the dead are resurrected to eternal life under judgment.
PinSeeker wrote:But that's not what I said; you're putting words in my mouth, which is not cool.

I apologize. You do not believe that that they live forever under judgment then?

Apology accepted. But -- no offense intended here, of course -- this question itself is oxymoronic in nature. I do believe that they exist forever under this judgement (as the Bible effectually says), but this is not life, it is death. Which brings me back yet again to the statement that I have made many times in response to statements from many posters on this forum (and elsewhere) in many threads (in many conversations): many people misunderstand what death really is in the Bible. They misunderstand what the death people experience as a result of being on the wrong side of the Judgment (on Jesus's left) really is.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Re:

Post #952

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #952]
there is nothing -- nothing -- in the Bible to indicate, either implicitly or explicitly, that anything beyond being raised to the resurrection of judgment happens to those on Jesus's left, and, as stated many times now, the indisputable fact that this punishment is eternal explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment.

To say otherwise is much as if to say that when I used to punish my son for something he did way back when (when he was a kid), he was not really present for that punishment and did not therefore endure it, which is just -- frankly -- absurd.
Absurdity indeed. Your "as if" story does not replicate what you think it does.

Yes, you have asserted many times this statement about eteral punishment, that it:
"explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment."

No doubt you will continue to make that claim, but it is not so, however many times anyone says it is so.


24 "May the LORD bless you and keep you;
25 May the LORD cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you;
26 may the LORD lift up His countenance toward you and give you peace".
(Numbers 6)

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Re: Re:

Post #953

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:26 pm [quote: PinSeeker] there is nothing -- nothing -- in the Bible to indicate, either implicitly or explicitly, that anything beyond being raised to the resurrection of judgment happens to those on Jesus's left, and, as stated many times now, the indisputable fact that this punishment is eternal explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment.

To say otherwise is much as if to say that when I used to punish my son for something he did way back when (when he was a kid), he was not really present for that punishment and did not therefore endure it, which is just -- frankly -- absurd.
Absurdity indeed. Your "as if" story does not replicate what you think it does.[/quote]
LOL! My goodness, Checkpoint, nothing temporal can replicate anything eternal. But temporal things can certainly reflect -- and give us some measure of insight into -- eternal things. And what I have said here surely does. Hey, no need for such anger, my friend.
Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:26 pm Yes, you have asserted many times this statement about eternal punishment, that it: "explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment."
And it does. Punishment that does is not consciously endured (which requires existence, of course) for eternity is not eternal, for goodness sakes. And punishment that is only endured for a short time is... temporary. I get it; the thought is that eternal punishment, if indeed it is consciously endured for eternity, is somehow unjust -- far beyond what is just -- and unloving -- far short of love. But who are we to decide what God's justice -- and even His love -- is or should be?
Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:26 pm No doubt you will continue to make that claim...
Only to those who continue to claim otherwise... But not in an argumentative way. Friendly debate is okay, of course.
Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:26 pm ...but it is not so, however many times anyone says it is so.
Oh, but it is. No matter how many times anyone claims otherwise.
Checkpoint wrote: Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:26 pm 24 "May the LORD bless you and keep you; 25 May the LORD cause His face to shine upon you and be gracious to you; 26 may the LORD lift up His countenance toward you and give you peace". (Numbers 6)
The same to you, Checkpoint. Grace and peace to you, my friend.

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Re: Re:

Post #954

Post by JehovahsWitness »

PinSeeker wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:23 pm
Punishment that does is not consciously endured (which requires existence, of course) for eternity is not eternal

It is if loss of conscious existence is deemed to be the punishment.

PUNISHMENT

1: the act of punishing
2a: suffering, pain, or loss that serves as retribution
b: a penalty inflicted on an offender through judicial procedure
3: severe, rough, or disastrous treatment
If the punishment is eternal torture (suffering, pain) then yes, existence is a preequisite for that punishment to be carried out. So if God had pronounced to Adam and Eve "...if you eat of this fruit you will surely. ...be tortured" then consciousness would be required.

However notice in the definition above, an alternative form of punishment involves not pain but loss. Thus a parent might take is teens mobile phone away for a week in punishment of abuses, a judge might revoke the driving licence of a drunk driver or more seriously a serial killer might be put to death. One cannot argue that the death penalty is not punishment because of how short the execution is, because the punishment was not the execution, the execution is the means to the end, the end or punishment being the loss of his life.
If the teen loses his mobile phone for one week, how long does the punishment last? It only took an instant for the phone to go from the teens hand to the parent, so why don't we say he was punished for 2 seconds? Because the punishment wasn't wrestling the phone out of his grip, the punishment was him not having a phone. When he gets the phone back the punishment ends, if he never get the phone back how long does the punishment last?
OBJECTION But both the drunk driver and the teen are conscious and thus suffer anguish during their punishment?

That is true but the distress wasn' t a perscribed part of the punishment. Indeed if the drunk driver buys a bike, loses 5 kilos, meets a girl in the park and lives the happiest five years of his life because he lost his driving licence, does that mean he wasn't punished? Does he, or does he not have a licence? If unhappiness was PART of the judges sentence, then yes, his sentence wasn't fully carried out, but if the punishment was prescribed to be the loss of the licence, then his happiness or anguish is incidental.

We reserve the death penalty for the very worst of criminals because life is deemed to be our most precious possession.

Image
If we take away a person's phone as punishment, and he gets it back after a week. The punishment lasted one week.

If we take away a person's licence as punishment, and he gets it back after a year. The punishment lasted one year.

If we take away a person's life as punishment, and he NEVER gets it back . The punishment lasts how long?


JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Re:

Post #955

Post by tam »

Peace again to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 2:16 pm
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am how can you say that some of us have added to what is written in that verse?
Because by believing in something else that happens to those raised to the resurrection of judgment -- specifically, annihilation -- those in question are adding something to the description of what happens to those raised to this resurrection of judgment beyond what is written. They don't mean to do that, and may not even be aware of it, really, but that is the effect.


If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
This is not true. You have been provided evidence of things in the bible which certainly do insinuate annihilation (destruction). Just because you do not accept those things, or dismiss them as having no meaning, does not mean that they do not exist.

tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).

Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written. The sheep and the goats parable does not include mention of a resurrection (because of course the sheep and the goats are the people of the nations who are alive at the time Christ returns). There is also no mention of faith (in Christ) as being the reason that the sheep are invited in and the goats are cast out. Because faith is not the reason for the sheep being invited in or the goats being cast out. The reason the sheep are invited into the Kingdom is listed though: it is based upon their deeds (as mentioned in the parable); upon how they have unknowingly treated Christ.

tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Or do you not believe that when He returns, there will be people on the earth who are yet living?
Of course I do. Some will join those on Jesus's right, and the others will join those on Jesus's left. Not sure of the purpose of this question, but no matter.
A - there is no mention of some (who are alive) joining those who have been resurrected. The simple statement is this:

“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

No mention of a resurrection of the dead. No mention of the living joining those who have been resurrected.


B - The purpose of my question is to highlight the fact that the sheep and the goats are people of the nations who are yet alive on the earth when Christ returns. The resurrection of the dead does not occur at this time (it does not occur until a thousand years later).


**

And here is further evidence that the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) are not Christians. Because as Paul said, Christians will caught up to meet the Lord in the sky when He returns, and Christians are changed in a twinkling, at that time. But this is not what happens with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. The sheep in that parable are gathered (as people of the nations) along with the goats, for the separation of the sheep and the goats.


For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.

THAT does not happen with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. The separation of the sheep and the goats is a different event than the 'catching up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air'. The sheep in the sheep and the goats parable are not Christians.


tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
And He says all tombs, which means there is no other possibility. So all are raised, to one or the other, and we can easily infer that annihilation is not a third possibility.
He does say all tombs, yes. But just because a person is resurrected does not mean that a person remains in that state for all eternity.
Yes, fair enough, but there is nothing -- nothing -- in the Bible to indicate, either implicitly or explicitly, that anything beyond being raised to the resurrection of judgment happens to those on Jesus's left, and, as stated many times now, the indisputable fact that this punishment is eternal explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment. To say otherwise is much as if to say that when I used to punish my son for something he did way back when (when he was a kid), he was not really present for that punishment and did not therefore endure it, which is just -- frankly -- absurd.
I think JW responded to this quite well in the previous post.

If the judgment being handed out to someone is death (execution; destruction; annihilation), the person is obviously present to receive that judgment (execution). They do not have to remain in existence for that judgment to be for all time, since the death (destruction) is... well... eternal.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am So what are they judged/condemned TO?
That question itself needs to be redirected. The more appropriate questions are:
  • 1. What are they excluded FROM?
Life (obviously that includes being excluded from all that life entails, including eternal life in the Kingdom, being reconciled to God, etc).
  • 2, Where are they then relegated to in order to endure this judgment/condemnation?
Why do you use the word 'endure' instead of 'receive'?

The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth.
But that was decided a thousand years earlier (at the first resurrection).

The first resurrection occurs... then the thousand years occurs... then the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) and the judgment occurs. No one resurrected at the second resurrection reigns in the Kingdom for the thousand years with Christ (since that thousand years has already passed).

I know, I know, you want me to say eternal life, so you can present yet again the dichotomy between that and eternal death, which means -- to you (and others) -- eternal non-existence and thus annihilation. But this is not what "eternal death" is. Eternal death is eternal separation from Christ in a place (symbolized by a lake and described figuratively as a place of outer darkness and of extreme sorrow and anguish -- weeping and gnashing of teeth) where God dispenses no grace, where only His judgment (symbolized by fire), having been rendered once and for all, remains. This death is not a wiping from existence or taking away of consciousness for any length of time, much less for eternity. This death is an eternal existence under the effect of the final Judgment, the "fire" that is unquenchable, "their worm that never dies."
Since you have previously likened the second death to the first death (which is described as a sleep, which is something we do while unconscious), I am not sure how you can then suggest that the second death is a conscious existence?

The answer to the second question is, of course, away from the new heaven and new earth and Christ Himself, outside the kingdom. Outside the camp, as in Leviticus 13:45-46 and Numbers 5:3-5 foreshadow.
So you think that there will be a "place" in existence for all eternity, where God is not present? Is not God said to eventually be all in all? (1Corinth 15:28)

tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
PinSeeker wrote:
  • "...if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly..." 2 Peter 2:6
  • "In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire." Jude 1:7
Peter and Jude both see the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah as a "type" (a diving foreshadowing) of judgment by fire on the last day. The Old Testament is filled with types and shadows of ultimate realities to come, and the judgment of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19 is one of them. The permanent and irrevocable judgment pronounced upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah is what is foreshadowing of eternity, not the literal razing of the cities.
Pinseeker, why not both?
Because the types/foreshadowings in the Old Testament are not literal with regard to the ultimate fulfillments. As I said, the example of the literal razing of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah is meant to show the permanence of God's final Judgment of and upon those who are unrepentant of their sin.
You have given no reason that one should reject the one part, while accepting the other part.
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
Tam wrote:"And be not afraid of those killing the body, and are not able to kill the soul, but fear rather Him who is able both soul and body to destroy in gehenna." Matt 10:28
PinSeeker wrote:As I said to Checkpoint above, the word "destroy" is in the Greek ἀπόλλυμι (apollymi), and it means in the context here not to be annihilated physically or wiped from existence, but rather to be brought to ruin spiritually. Paul and James use the same word in the same way, and Peter and Jude, too. And what we see from Paul, Peter, and even John in Revelation regarding "destruction" as rendered in English (ἀπώλεια, or apōleia, in the Greek) is very much the same, but in the form of a noun rather than a verb.
Here is the meaning of the word...
I well know the meaning of the word, Tammy, and I know too (as you should, and do, I think) that depending on the context where the word is found, it has different meanings. Congruent meanings, but different in scope. What I said above stands.
What you said could be misleading to the reader, which is why I supplied the FULL meaning of the word:
Tam wrote:(See also Rev 20:9, because fire comes down from God from heaven and devours 'gog and magog'; and the meaning of the word translated as "devour" includes "utterly consume; destroy, by fire"...
**
tam wrote: Thu Nov 19, 2020 5:19 pm
tam wrote:Second, if you are saying that some of us are 'adding' to what is written, then how would you not be doing the same? Because the verse in John does not state that some of the dead are resurrected to life, and some of the dead are resurrected to eternal life under judgment.
PinSeeker wrote:But that's not what I said; you're putting words in my mouth, which is not cool.

I apologize. You do not believe that that they live forever under judgment then?

Apology accepted. But -- no offense intended here, of course -- this question itself is oxymoronic in nature. I do believe that they exist forever under this judgement (as the Bible effectually says), but this is not life, it is death.


Again, the verse in John does not state that some of the dead are resurrected to life and some of the dead are resurrected to eternal existence under judgment.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Re:

Post #956

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:56 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:23 pm Punishment that does is not consciously endured (which requires existence, of course) for eternity is not eternal
It is if loss of conscious existence is deemed to be the punishment./quote]
Okay... acknowledged... but God does not deem "loss of conscious existence" as the punishment.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:56 pm If the punishment is eternal torture --
Stop with the "eternal torture" bit. No one tortures anyone in any way. I have said this what seems like hundreds of times... plenty enough that no reasonable person would even approach insinuating that I have, or that the Bible does. What I have said -- and what the Bible says (and graphically displays) -- is that those who do endure this eternal punishment will be in perpetual anguish and regret. We've all at some point (maybe many points) been anguished because of something we should or should not have done, right? Yes, we all have. Thus, a picture, however small, of the anguish unrepentant sinners will endure... for eternity. And this anguish will be tortuous. Not literal "torture," as if inflicted by some other person (much less God), but tortuous.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:56 pm ...suffering, pain...
Yeah stop again. There is no physical suffering or pain that takes place in hell. I have been crystal clear on this, too, many times, as is the Bible. I'm being a bit facetious, here... but only a bit :)... but I'm suffering and in pain having to answer to the same silly mischaracterizations over and over and over again. Do you understand? Yes, I think you do.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:56 pm ...if God had pronounced to Adam and Eve "...if you eat of this fruit you will surely. ...be tortured" then consciousness would be required.
Yeah stop again. The irony here is that I have used this very event from Genesis 2 and 3 several times. Sure, God told Adam and Eve that they would surely die in that very day that they ate the fruit of the forbidden tree. And they did die. They were expelled from Eden, but they did not cease to exist. They died. Paradise was lost (a reference to John Milton's famous poem). In the same way, at the final Judgment, the unrepentant will be expelled from the New Heaven and New Earth (paradise restored). As foreshadowed by Adam and Eve. they will indeed experience a death -- the second and final death -- in that day, but they will not cease to exist.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:56 pm If we take away a person's life as punishment, and he NEVER gets it back . The punishment lasts how long?
Agreed. Yes, one ceases to have life and never again experiences it, but existence is what is in question here, and it is surely not taken away. We will all live -- at least in the woodenly literal sense -- for eternity; the only question is where, and whether that life will be true life or not.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Re:

Post #957

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #954]
But temporal things can certainly reflect -- and give us some measure of insight into -- eternal things.
Yes, these verses, for instance:
2 Peter 2:

5 If He did not spare the ancient world when He brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others;
6 if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly ...

Jude 7:
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who experienced the punishment of eternal fire
.
Hey, no need for such anger, my friend.
Really, Pinseeker?

Grace and peace, my friend.

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Re: Re:

Post #958

Post by myth-one.com »


JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:56 pm If we take away a person's life as punishment, and he NEVER gets it back . The punishment lasts how long?
PinSeeker wrote:Agreed. Yes, one ceases to have life and never again experiences it, but existence is what is in question here, and it is surely not taken away. We will all live -- at least in the woodenly literal sense -- for eternity; the only question is where, and whether that life will be true life or not.

It appears that you agreed that if a person's punishment is death, and his or her life is taken away, never to be restored, then that death would be an everlasting punishment.

But then you digress and claim that existence is what is really in question.

The scriptures as inspired by God state that the dead know not anything:

For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing... (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

If we all live eternally as you claim, how does your definition of "life" allow for "dead" people having no consciousness of anything for all eternity?

That is:

If the wages of sin is death, and those wages are everlasting, and the dead know not any thing, in what way can those paying the wages of their sins be said to exist?

===============================================

The opposite of life is death.

What is the opposite of your "true life?

Fake life?




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Re: Re:

Post #959

Post by PinSeeker »

tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm If that is your reason for saying that of some of us, then you are doing the same thing. Because there is nothing in that verse which states that people who rise to judgment remain in existence for all time.
The word 'eternal' is right there, isn't it? And that means for eternity... of eternity... for the duration of eternity. There is no ambiguity.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
There is nothing written in the Bible that even insinuates annihilation, and in fact the opposite is true, especially in the concept of eternal punishment.
This is not true.
Indeed it is true.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm You have been provided evidence of things in the bible which certainly do insinuate annihilation (destruction).
Yes, evidence without merit, and I have been very clear (as the Bible is) why.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm Just because you do not accept those things, or dismiss them as having no meaning, does not mean that they do not exist.
I dismiss nothing. I refute it, because the Bible does. "These things" do not exist.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm
PinSeeker wrote:When something is proclaimed as true, we can easily infer that it's opposite is not true. For example, Jesus says people are either for or against him, and by inference we can easily say that there is no neutral position. By the same token, Jesus says some are raised to life (those on his right in Matthew 25) and others are raised to judgement (those on his left in Matthew 25).
Tam wrote:Matt 25 (specifically the parable of the sheep and goats that you are referencing here) does not speak of a resurrection at all.
PinSeeker wrote:Right, the resurrection itself is not in view, as Jesus is speaking of the final Judgment, which takes place immediately after the second resurrection.
By the standards you are using against some of us, this would mean that you are adding to what is written.
Absolutely not.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm The sheep and the goats parable does not include mention of a resurrection (because of course the sheep and the goats are the people of the nations who are alive at the time Christ returns).
LOL! Absolutely... well, wrong... incomplete. Included are those who are still alive at the time Jesus returns, but also included are all those who have previously died physically... all the nations. More on this in a moment. But to dispute this is far outside basic Biblical understanding.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm There is also no mention of faith (in Christ) as being the reason that the sheep are invited in and the goats are cast out. Because faith is not the reason for the sheep being invited in or the goats being cast out. The reason the sheep are invited into the Kingdom is listed though: it is based upon their deeds (as mentioned in the parable); upon how they have unknowingly treated Christ.
Good works, those honored by God, are the result of faith. This was portrayed for us in the Old Testament by sacrifices and offerings. What was brought to the Lord in faith He honored, and what was not brought to Him in faith, He did not honor. And as James surely tells us in chapter 2 of his epistle, faith without works is dead -- if one thinks or says he/she has faith but there are no works to validate that faith, then those works are worthless; God will not honor them. So yes, I agree with you that all are judged based on their deeds, but in view of what I have said (which is what the Bible says), faith is the root issue.
tam wrote: Mon Nov 23, 2020 8:28 pm And here is further evidence that the sheep (from the sheep and the goats parable) are not Christians. Because as Paul said, Christians will caught up to meet the Lord in the sky when He returns, and Christians are changed in a twinkling, at that time. But this is not what happens with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. The sheep in that parable are gathered (as people of the nations) along with the goats, for the separation of the sheep and the goats.
  • "For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, we also believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in Him. 15 By the word of the Lord, we declare to you that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
THAT does not happen with the sheep in the sheep and the goats parable. The separation of the sheep and the goats is a different event than the 'catching up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air'. The sheep in the sheep and the goats parable are not Christians.
<chuckles> No, it does not happen IN the sheep and the goats parable, because at the Judgment, Jesus's return will have already taken place. The event in question in Matthew 25 coincides with -- is the same event as -- the event described in Revelation 20:11-15, which takes place after Jesus returns and leads the final victory over Satan. The sheep of Matthew 25 are indeed Christians -- ALL Christians; more on this in a moment -- and the goats are not; the goats are all non-Christians. Again, more on this in a moment. But to think otherwise is... not Biblical.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
PinSeeker wrote:And He says all tombs, which means there is no other possibility. So all are raised, to one or the other, and we can easily infer that annihilation is not a third possibility.
Tam wrote:He does say all tombs, yes. But just because a person is resurrected does not mean that a person remains in that state for all eternity.
PinSeeker wrote:Yes, fair enough, but there is nothing -- nothing -- in the Bible to indicate, either implicitly or explicitly, that anything beyond being raised to the resurrection of judgment happens to those on Jesus's left, and, as stated many times now, the indisputable fact that this punishment is eternal explicitly indicates existence in this eternal punishment. To say otherwise is much as if to say that when I used to punish my son for something he did way back when (when he was a kid), he was not really present for that punishment and did not therefore endure it, which is just -- frankly -- absurd.
I think JW responded to this quite well in the previous post.
He most assuredly did not. See my response above.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
  • 2, Where are they then relegated to in order to endure this judgment/condemnation?
Why do you use the word 'endure' instead of 'receive'?
Pretty sure I've used both several times, Tammy. If you don't think I have, then I certainly do that here. Yes, they receive the final judgment (given by Jesus), and then they are placed under that judgment and sent away from the New Heaven and New Earth to a place where they will endure it for eternity. Jesus says they will "go away into eternal punishment." If one goes away into... something or somewhere, he or she does not cease to exist.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
The answer to the first question is, co-inheritance with Christ of the kingdom, the new heaven and new earth.
But that was decided a thousand years earlier (at the first resurrection). The first resurrection occurs... then the thousand years occurs... then the second resurrection (the resurrection of the dead) and the judgment occurs. No one resurrected at the second resurrection reigns in the Kingdom for the thousand years with Christ (since that thousand years has already passed).
Ohhhhh, boy. Now we're crossing over yet again into the wrong understanding of the millennium that we've been over many times. No, the first resurrection occurs through the course of the millennium, as, each at their appointed time (Acts 13:48) are given new life in the Spirit and come to belief and repentance and, as Paul says in Ephesians 2:6, are "raised up with Him and (thus) seated with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus." As we read in Revelation 20:
  • "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years." (vv.5-6)
This is to be read in the way that I'm saying here and have said a number of times -- over the course of the "thousand years" (which is not literally one thousand 365-day periods, but rather the fullness of God's time, in which he brings His Israel to full completion, people are being spiritually resurrected and reigning with Christ over the course of that "thousand years." Then at the close of the millennium -- at the point that God has brought Gentile believers into His Israel and subsequently removed the partial hardening (Romans 11) -- in short order, Jesus returns, Satan is finally defeated, the second resurrection takes place, the Judgment (described in Matthew 25 and Revelation 20) occurs, the dead are sent away from the New Heaven and New Earth, and eternity commences. There is no annihilation.

So again, from above, as promised, just a quick note about Jesus's return... He will bring those who died from this life before, for all time, who have been with Him in paradise, just as He told the thief crucified on His right he would be that day. So, yes, all believers who had previously died will return with Jesus... He will bring them with Him. And those who are still alive at the time of His return will go out to meet Him in the air and join Him in His return (as Paul describes to the Thessalonians, as you cited above). So again, all -- ALL -- will be present at the Judgment.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Since you have previously likened the second death to the first death (which is described as a sleep, which is something we do while unconscious), I am not sure how you can then suggest that the second death is a conscious existence?
As I have said -- again, many times, but you purposely misconstrue here yet again; perhaps it is unintentional, but if it happens repetitively and is refuted repetitively, one has to wonder -- the death of the Bible is not woodenly physical but rather spiritual. The first death is the physical death, the second is a permanent spiritual death. I will say this, that the first and second deaths are similar in some ways, one being that neither is a cessation of existence. :)
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am
The answer to the second question is, of course, away from the new heaven and new earth and Christ Himself, outside the kingdom. Outside the camp, as in Leviticus 13:45-46 and Numbers 5:3-5 foreshadow.
So you think that there will be a "place" in existence for all eternity, where God is not present? Is not God said to eventually be all in all? (1Corinth 15:28)
Oh, God will be present, as He is present everywhere. I have said, countless times now, that God's
  • grace
is not present. God no longer dispenses grace, He dispenses only His judgment there (not to say that He "judges people over and over again"; His judgment has been rendered once and for all. And those who are there "live" in that judgment and under its consequences forever, which is a death.
tam wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 12:40 am Again, the verse in John does not state that some of the dead are resurrected to life and some of the dead are resurrected to eternal existence under judgment.
And so you're putting words in my mouth again, even right after you supposedly apologized for it. John 5:29 says the unrepentant are "raised to a resurrection of judgment." Would you have it say they are raised and then wiped out? Because the Bible says nothing here or elsewhere about that being the case. They are raised to a resurrection of judgment. Nothing more, and nothing less.

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Re:

Post #960

Post by PinSeeker »

Uh-oh. Myth-one is back. So, I should probably be as Monty Python's knights in search of the holy grail and "Run away! Run away! Run away!" :)

Oh, wait, no off-handed comments. Observe the rules. Okay, so... I... disagree with you, myth-one. There. :D

Grace and peace to all.

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