Predestination Theology

[William]

I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

[William]

Peace again to you.

[Replying to tam in post #127]

I am spirit within this vessel (treasure within clay vessels).

And what is "Spirit" as you understand it Tammy? I understand it [in relation to the "clay vessels"] as "particles of The Creator Spirit."

Is that not how you see yourself? Is that not what Jesus has taught you to see yourself as being?

Since I have no idea what you mean when you say that - except that you seem to think everyone is a kind of avatar of the Creator (which is not what Christ teaches) -

Not at all. When you use the word "everyone" are you speaking about flesh or spirit?
If you are talking about flesh, then no. Flesh is the avatar of The Spirit, which is what Christ teaches. It is also what the Bible teaches.

I cannot say that I see myself as you describe.

Now that I have clarified, can you say that you see yourself as Spirit currently using the human form as an avatar?

Regardless, the point is moot because it is not the reason - despite your claim - that I do not accept the claims you make about 'afterlifes'. It just sounds like a convenient excuse being used to dismiss the reasons I (and others) do not accept the claims you are making.

When the flesh dies, the spirits which occupied them have to go somewhere. They have placements in that regard and this depends largely on how they self identified while being human.
Why would you claim Christ did not tech this?

[myth-one.com]

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal.

If mankind is eternal and exists forever as you claim, then why did God separate them from the Tree of Life "lest they eat from it and live forever"?

Is eternal not forever?

The difference is to enable an explanation of the difference between the station of The Creator and the station of the created, in relation to beliefs formulated through human experience.

Spirit bodies [forms] were created to last forever. They had a beginning.
The human form was created to last as long as its use-by date so an element within the fruit of the Tree of Life was required in order to allow for a reaction to take place in order to counteract the use-by date properties of the form - essentially make it last longer.

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

Adam and Eve were created to live until the day in which they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. So their "use-by date" was undetermined initially.

To God, a thousand years is like a day:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past... (Psalm 90:4)

But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (II Peter 3:8)

So Adam and Eve had only one God day to live after eating the forbidden fruit. And indeed, he died within the next 1000 years:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years... (Genesis 5:5)

After Adam & Eve sinned, God put a limit of 120 earth years on the human species. This is the same number scientists discovered in about 1975-1980 when they discovered telomeres. Telomeres are repeating DNA strings (TTAGGG) that cap chromosomes. Each time a cell divides its telomeres become shorter. When they reach a preset length the cell ceases to divide, ages, and dies. This occurs at 120 years of age. The same number God set it to in Genesis. So our current "use-by" date is 120 years.

But the "use-by" bit is ridiculous anyway as few ever come close to 120 years of age.

Suppose Adam has just eaten from the Tree of Life which is on an 8,000 foot high cliff. He eats, gets up, takes the wrong turn, and falls 8,000 feet to his death.

Under those circumstances, the magic fruit did not gain him any immortality! That is, the use-by period is not guaranteed by eating of the fruit. One can die from other than natural causes.

Your belief that the fruit of the ToL need only be eaten the once, clouds the understanding. The evidence re the storyline [in how long Adam's form lasted after he lost access to the fruit] bears witness to this. Also to take into account, a tree bearing fruit has the purpose of providing a continuous supple of said fruit, also bearing witness that the fruit needed to be consumed on occasions, rather than simply once.

One could say [and so shall say] that it is possible that the pair wondered often about the fruit of the other [forbidden] tree [about the feel, taste and effects] when eating of the fruit of the ToL...after all, it is only human to wonder at what one is not allowed.

But anyway, the difference between eternal and forever and the point I think PinSeeker is trying to make, is that Adam was not an eternal being, . . .

Then why did PinSeeker say the following?

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal.

Spiritual bodies are immortal. Spirits have no reason to eat anything!

Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden so as to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever like God and the angels.

If Adam & Eve have to eat periodically from the Tree of life to live forever, then they would never be like God and the angels, because God and the angels do not have to eat or do anything to remain alive!

So it takes only one hit on the tree of Life fruit to gain everlasting life.

[2timothy316]

Second, where does this doctrine even come from?

It is not a "Doctrine". It is simply information gathered from a variety of doctrines and other sources...

......so it's based on other doctrines but its not a doctrine....ok

I'm curious if you vetted these other 'sources'. Can you name any of these 'sources'?

Sure. Do you wish to vet them as well?

A list of doctrines and other sources would be nice.

Yes -I suppose that it would. But why would I go to the trouble of gathering these? [ I ask myself]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #129]

Why are you telling me what I will reject?

Because I already know what you accept as "Truth" and have explained why you accept what you do is 'the truth'... why do you self identify as being the flesh?

So I guess I shouldn't hold my breath on those sources of yours and we will never know what I would actually accept. My God holds me accountable for not sharing what I know when asked to defend my faith, does yours? (1 Peter 3:15)

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace again to you.

[Replying to tam in post #127]

I am spirit within this vessel (treasure within clay vessels).

And what is "Spirit" as you understand it Tammy? I understand it [in relation to the "clay vessels"] as "particles of The Creator Spirit."

Is that not how you see yourself? Is that not what Jesus has taught you to see yourself as being?

Since I have no idea what you mean when you say that - except that you seem to think everyone is a kind of avatar of the Creator (which is not what Christ teaches) -

Not at all. When you use the word "everyone" are you speaking about flesh or spirit?

I am speaking about the person. People are spirits (in clay vessels). So I am speaking about the spirit that people are.

Regardless, the point is moot because it is not the reason - despite your claim - that I do not accept the claims you make about 'afterlifes'. It just sounds like a convenient excuse being used to dismiss the reasons I (and others) do not accept the claims you are making.

When the flesh dies, the spirits which occupied them have to go somewhere. They have placements in that regard and this depends largely on how they self identified while being human.
Why would you claim Christ did not tech this?

Because He did not. Instead of repeating the same content from previous discussions though, I'll just link to one:

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183



Peace again to you.

[William]

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal.

If mankind is eternal and exists forever as you claim, then why did God separate them from the Tree of Life "lest they eat from it and live forever"?

Is eternal not forever?

The difference is to enable an explanation of the difference between the station of The Creator and the station of the created, in relation to beliefs formulated through human experience.

Spirit bodies [forms] were created to last forever. They had a beginning.
The human form was created to last as long as its use-by date so an element within the fruit of the Tree of Life was required in order to allow for a reaction to take place in order to counteract the use-by date properties of the form - essentially make it last longer.

And the Lord God commanded the man saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. (Genesis 2:16-17)

Adam and Eve were created to live until the day in which they ate of the Tree of Knowledge. So their "use-by date" was undetermined initially.

The bodies of Adam and Eve - Not the Spirit which was breathed into the bodies.

To God, a thousand years is like a day:

To the Creator, a thousand years is meaningless, because the Creator is eternal To a spirit in human form, a day is like a day followed by a night...nice insight, but what of its importance re the topic?

For a thousand years in thy sight are but yesterday when it is past... (Psalm 90:4)

But beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. (II Peter 3:8)

So yes - it is an attempt at explaining how different The Creator experiences "time" in relation to how a spirit within a human form experiences time...what seems a long time in human terms is not experienced in the same way for The Creator...how does this dovetail re the topic at hand?

So Adam and Eve had only one God day to live after eating the forbidden fruit. And indeed, he died within the next 1000 years:

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years... (Genesis 5:5)

So? If they had not done what they did, then their bodies would not have died, as they would still have had access to the fruit which gave their bodies the ability to not reach any use-by date...

After Adam & Eve sinned, God put a limit of 120 earth years on the human species. This is the same number scientists discovered in about 1975-1980 when they discovered telomeres. Telomeres are repeating DNA strings (TTAGGG) that cap chromosomes. Each time a cell divides its telomeres become shorter. When they reach a preset length the cell ceases to divide, ages, and dies. This occurs at 120 years of age. The same number God set it to in Genesis.

So this might be the literal interpretation of the figurative "tree of life" - The Creator changed the DNA structure in order that human forms no longer could last indefinitely.
The same thing scientists are looking to find out how to do, in the now...to reverse that aging and dying process...

Your belief that the fruit of the ToL need only be eaten the once, clouds the understanding. The evidence re the storyline [in how long Adam's form lasted after he lost access to the fruit] bears witness to this. Also to take into account, a tree bearing fruit has the purpose of providing a continuous supple of said fruit, also bearing witness that the fruit needed to be consumed on occasions, rather than simply once.

One could say [and so shall say] that it is possible that the pair wondered often about the fruit of the other [forbidden] tree [about the feel, taste and effects] when eating of the fruit of the ToL...after all, it is only human to wonder at what one is not allowed.

But anyway, the difference between eternal and forever and the point I think PinSeeker is trying to make, is that Adam was not an eternal being, . . .

Then why did PinSeeker say the following?

We agree that man is mortal, but man is also eternal.

I think he was saying something along the lines of "Higgitty Piggity, Piggity Higgitty" but you will really need to ask him to get confirmation on that.

Spiritual bodies are immortal. Spirits have no reason to eat anything!

Spiritual bodies are also forms in which spirits occupy. Spiritual bodies are not "Spirits"

Adam and Eve were ejected from the Garden so as to prevent them from eating from the Tree of Life and living forever like God and the angels.

To be clearer, The bodies called "Adam and Eve" along with the individuate spirits which occupied said bodies, were expelled so that they did not have access to that which allowed the bodies to be indefinite [like The Creator in the story and his Angels were.]

The reason for this decision [not taken lightly] was that The Creator in the story and his Angels realized that the way [Adam especially] used the knowledge was unacceptable in relation to longevity. IF Adam had accepted his part in the process [eating of the forbidden fruit] and owned it, THEN the result would most likely have been different.

But now, the bodies had to die, and the Spirits within said bodies would have to experience the bodies dying...and in that, be ejected from said bodies.

If Adam & Eve have to eat periodically from the Tree of life to live forever, then they would never be like God and the angels, because God and the angels do not have to eat or do anything to remain alive!

Once more, you continue to conflate flesh with spirit and as a result, argue from that redundant perspective. The fruit was for the purpose of allowing the body to be an indefinite fixture, rather than it decaying.

So it takes only one hit on the tree of Life fruit to gain everlasting life.

Or, it takes one simple restructure of the DNA coding, and the body would die...if indeed the "Tree of Life" is simply a symbolic figurative, not literally a tree in a garden...

[William]

Peace to you,

Peace again to you.

[Replying to tam in post #127]

I am spirit within this vessel (treasure within clay vessels).

And what is "Spirit" as you understand it Tammy? I understand it [in relation to the "clay vessels"] as "particles of The Creator Spirit."

Is that not how you see yourself? Is that not what Jesus has taught you to see yourself as being?

Since I have no idea what you mean when you say that - except that you seem to think everyone is a kind of avatar of the Creator (which is not what Christ teaches) -

Not at all. When you use the word "everyone" are you speaking about flesh or spirit?

I am speaking about the person. People are spirits (in clay vessels). So I am speaking about the spirit that people are.

Regardless, the point is moot because it is not the reason - despite your claim - that I do not accept the claims you make about 'afterlifes'. It just sounds like a convenient excuse being used to dismiss the reasons I (and others) do not accept the claims you are making.

When the flesh dies, the spirits which occupied them have to go somewhere. They have placements in that regard and this depends largely on how they self identified while being human.
Why would you claim Christ did not tech this?

Because He did not. Instead of repeating the same content from previous discussions though, I'll just link to one:

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183



Peace again to you.

Oh I see. You are still hung up with my inviting you to play in The Creators Realm because [according to you] Jesus does not want his "Sheep" to do that.

You claim that I am teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. You have yet to support that claim. Being apparently offended by my invitation is in itself, not supporting your claim...

btw - my offer still stands - for you and anyone else.

What do you expect to experience in the afterlife Tammy?

[tam]

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Peace again to you.

[Replying to tam in post #127]

I am spirit within this vessel (treasure within clay vessels).

And what is "Spirit" as you understand it Tammy? I understand it [in relation to the "clay vessels"] as "particles of The Creator Spirit."

Is that not how you see yourself? Is that not what Jesus has taught you to see yourself as being?

Since I have no idea what you mean when you say that - except that you seem to think everyone is a kind of avatar of the Creator (which is not what Christ teaches) -

Not at all. When you use the word "everyone" are you speaking about flesh or spirit?

I am speaking about the person. People are spirits (in clay vessels). So I am speaking about the spirit that people are.

Regardless, the point is moot because it is not the reason - despite your claim - that I do not accept the claims you make about 'afterlifes'. It just sounds like a convenient excuse being used to dismiss the reasons I (and others) do not accept the claims you are making.

When the flesh dies, the spirits which occupied them have to go somewhere. They have placements in that regard and this depends largely on how they self identified while being human.
Why would you claim Christ did not tech this?

Because He did not. Instead of repeating the same content from previous discussions though, I'll just link to one:

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183



Peace again to you.

Oh I see. You are still hung up with my inviting you to play in The Creators Realm because [according to you] Jesus does not want his "Sheep" to do that.

This appears to be nothing more than an excuse to dismiss the argument against your position.

You claim that I am teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. You have yet to support that claim. Being apparently offended by my invitation is in itself, not supporting your claim...

I am not so easily offended, William. The content is there in the post (and many others) for anyone to see for themselves.

What do you expect to experience in the afterlife Tammy?

(I am not a fan of the term 'afterlife'... as if it might be something other than life that we experience.)


If a person (in Christ) dies before He returns, then they will be resurrected (the first resurrection) when He returns.
If a person (in Christ) is alive when Christ returns, that person will never die.


But Christ promises to lead his sheep into all truth. Not illusion. Not lies. He does not ever teach that He will lead His sheep into illusions or into lies.



Peace again to you.

[myth-one.com]

Spiritual bodies are not "Spirits"

Then what is a Spirit?

[William]

Peace to you,

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183



Peace again to you.

Oh I see. You are still hung up with my inviting you to play in The Creators Realm because [according to you] Jesus does not want his "Sheep" to do that.

This appears to be nothing more than an excuse to dismiss the argument against your position.

Well it isn't. What it is is the observation that you have only presented accusations, not arguments. You seem to be confused as to the difference.

You claim that I am teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. You have yet to support that claim. Being apparently offended by my invitation is in itself, not supporting your claim...

I am not so easily offended, William.

I offer you an invitation and you turn it down because it is not what you believe The Shepard wants for his sheep. Your manner does suggest that you are [still] offended by the invitation made to you.

What do you expect to experience in the afterlife Tammy?

(I am not a fan of the term 'afterlife'... as if it might be something other than life that we experience.)

I understand. I myself prefer the term "The Next Phase"

If a person (in Christ) dies before He returns, then they will be resurrected (the first resurrection) when He returns.
If a person (in Christ) is alive when Christ returns, that person will never die.

It appears that you believe that this will occur on this planet in this universe. Do I understand you correctly?

But Christ promises to lead his sheep into all truth. Not illusion. Not lies. He does not ever teach that He will lead His sheep into illusions or into lies.

Yes. Christ brings us out of all illusion, so that we might understand it for what it is.

In that, as I said, we are not the flesh. We are the Spirit. The flesh [form] is the illusion.

You appear to disagree with this, so how do you support your belief that form is not illusion?

[William]

Spiritual bodies are not "Spirits"

Then what is a Spirit?

That which creates and inhabits form.