Predestination Theology

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
Online
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14002
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Predestination Theology

Post #1

Post by William »

2timothy316 wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 2:01 pm I don't think the false predestination god should be the one to define that seeing how he is willing to torture people eternally for conditions that he placed on them. The false predestination god is a sicko.
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

Image

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #141

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:35 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 pm
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:56 pm Spiritual bodies are not "Spirits"
Then what is a Spirit?
That which creates and inhabits form.
So every living thing which reproduces itself is a spirit.

And I can't remember for sure anymore, but I think you said spirits are immortal or eternal, or whatever.

If so, then every living being is an eternal spirit.

Online
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14002
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #142

Post by William »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:58 pm
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:35 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 pm
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:56 pm Spiritual bodies are not "Spirits"
Then what is a Spirit?
That which creates and inhabits form.
So every living thing which reproduces itself is a spirit.
No. You are speaking of forms - specifically Earth related forms. Forms are not Spirits
And I can't remember for sure anymore, but I think you said spirits are immortal or eternal, or whatever.
You can't remember? Perhaps if you use the review option, you will see it is easy to find out.
If so, then every living being is an eternal spirit.
No. Every living form is an avatar [container] which is animated by Spirit. [makes the form alive]

Specific to this discussion, it is the human form which is the focus...what it is [a form with particular function] in relation to what we are [Spirit within said form].

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #143

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:34 pm
tam wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:38 pm Peace to you,
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 6:01 pm

viewtopic.php?p=1030183#p1030183



Peace again to you.
Oh I see. You are still hung up with my inviting you to play in The Creators Realm because [according to you] Jesus does not want his "Sheep" to do that.
This appears to be nothing more than an excuse to dismiss the argument against your position.
Well it isn't. What it is is the observation that you have only presented accusations, not arguments. You seem to be confused as to the difference.
Not at all. But again, the content is there for anyone who wishes to see for themselves.
You claim that I am teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. You have yet to support that claim. Being apparently offended by my invitation is in itself, not supporting your claim...
I am not so easily offended, William.
I offer you an invitation and you turn it down because it is not what you believe The Shepard wants for his sheep. Your manner does suggest that you are [still] offended by the invitation made to you.
Few people are offended to receive an invitation. More are offended when their invitation is turned down. So perhaps it is you who are offended? Or perhaps this whole 'offended thing' is just an excuse. First people are rejecting what you say because they believe they are 'flesh' and not 'spirit'. That does not work for me, so now I must be rejecting your claim because I am offended...

Never mind the actual reasons I gave as to why I do not accept your claims.


What do you expect to experience in the afterlife Tammy?
(I am not a fan of the term 'afterlife'... as if it might be something other than life that we experience.)
I understand. I myself prefer the term "The Next Phase"
Okay.

If a person (in Christ) dies before He returns, then they will be resurrected (the first resurrection) when He returns.
If a person (in Christ) is alive when Christ returns, that person will never die.
It appears that you believe that this will occur on this planet in this universe. Do I understand you correctly?
Some things occur in the spiritual realm, some on the earth, some both. I think that is another topic though.
But Christ promises to lead his sheep into all truth. Not illusion. Not lies. He does not ever teach that He will lead His sheep into illusions or into lies.
Yes. Christ brings us out of all illusion, so that we might understand it for what it is.

In that, as I said, we are not the flesh. We are the Spirit. The flesh [form] is the illusion.

You appear to disagree with this, so how do you support your belief that form is not illusion?

William, I do not accept your claim about what happens in the 'next phase'; the 'hells' (or whatever other illusion/deception/lie) you think will come next for some people.

I am not commenting on anything new, since I do not know what other meaning you have attached to certain words like spirit/Spirit.


Peace again to you.

Online
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14002
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #144

Post by William »

tam wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 10:40 pm


William, I do not accept your claim about what happens in the 'next phase'; the 'hells' (or whatever other illusion/deception/lie) you think will come next for some people.

Tammy

Jesus himself spoke of Hell. I understand that some Christians cannot accept that there are hellish experiences which are had in the next phase, but there is evidence from folk who share their experience of such places and so it is not easy for me to accept your claim that such do not occur.

That is why I created the thread, and asked these questions.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"

Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

You have not bothered to answer the OPQ's which is your right. That you don't agree with the idea that such experience can be had in the next phase, [which is also your right] is not relevant to the thread topic and questions being asked in the OP.

What isn't acceptable is your claim that these hellish experiences cannot happen in the next phase just on the grounds that you don't believe they do. What is acceptable is that you offer the reader support for why it is you do not believe such, bearing in mind the thread topic and accompanying questions.

If you cannot offer support, then that is perfectly acceptable and you can humbly bow out of making any further comment in this thread. We get that you do not believe, but that is besides the point.

Jesus believed, and that is a biblical fact.

People share their stories of their experiences of these hellish environments [the internet will provide you with any amount of examples so all you have to do is search these out] which back up what the bible records Jesus as saying in regard to "Hell".

The OP accepts the notion and askes the questions related to that.

If you have nothing to say in answer to those questions, I respect your right not to do so, but will not be engaging with you any more in this on those other matters as that was not the reason I created this thread, and engaging with you has proven to be disruptive regarding that.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #145

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
[Replying to William in post #145]

What isn't acceptable is your claim that these hellish experiences cannot happen in the next phase just on the grounds that you don't believe they do.
Good thing I never used "I don't believe it" as grounds for anything. I gave the reasons for why I do not accept it.
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
There is a true God.

I don't know what you mean by 'predestination' or 'true predestination God'. Timothy seemed to mean a God that predestines people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell'. I don't use terms like 'sicko', but I certainly don't see the point or the love in that (predestining people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell').
Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?
The experience that timothy referred to (eternal torment) would not be from love.

An illusion/deception/lie (temporary or permanent suffering) would also not be from love considering that Christ promised to lead His sheep into all truth, and that He came to bear witness to the truth, and that He is Himself the Truth. Him leading His sheep into illusion/deception would make His promise a lie. How then could a person trust anything else? Why would God do that to us instead of just sending His Son - His Truth - to speak and lead us into all truth (as Christ said He came to do)? And just how would anyone ever know illusion from reality, or if the next next phase is just another illusion? That IS messed up, William. Where is the love in that? The truth?


Lies do not come from the Truth. Christ (the Truth) does not lie. People lie though, sometimes purposely, sometimes because they have been lied to or because they misunderstand something.




Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?

See above. (Though of course a forever torment would be worse than a temporary torment, but deceit is deceit. I did touch on that, in post 53, I think.)



Peace again to you.

Online
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14002
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #146

Post by William »

tam wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:08 am Peace to you,
[Replying to William in post #145]

What isn't acceptable is your claim that these hellish experiences cannot happen in the next phase just on the grounds that you don't believe they do.
Good thing I never used "I don't believe it" as grounds for anything. I gave the reasons for why I do not accept it.
Well that is something yes? But then are you saying you wouldn't accept it even if it were true?
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
There is a true God.

I don't know what you mean by 'predestination' or 'true predestination God'. Timothy seemed to mean a God that predestines people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell'. I don't use terms like 'sicko', but I certainly don't see the point or the love in that (predestining people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell').
I think it is obvious enough what Timothy was saying. There appears to be two notions of the god of the bible. One is that he predestines everything and the other is that he somehow seals himself off from the omniscience he is attributed with having.

Those [like yourself] who see an all-knowing creator entity allowing people to suffer hellish circumstances as a being who cannot be a loving entity, don't seem to understand the contradiction in relation to our current reality experience, which we know allows for people to experience hellish situations here on this very planet, and yet claim that the entity who created it and allows such to happen, is 'loving'.

I am sure that as a seeker of truth you can appreciate how such contradiction doesn't sit well with those who hear it, especially when those who argue that the god of the bible is a loving being even that he allows people to suffer hellish experiences on this planet, but also argue that such an entity cannot be a loving being if he allows suffering to go on in the next phase.
Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?
The experience that timothy referred to (eternal torment) would not be from love
I agree with you there.
An illusion/deception/lie (temporary or permanent suffering) would also not be from love considering that Christ promised to lead His sheep into all truth, and that He came to bear witness to the truth, and that He is Himself the Truth. Him leading His sheep into illusion/deception would make His promise a lie.
If the deception is simply in what folk have heard told to them, and they choose to believe it, how is that a lie?
If Christ knew of this process in the next phase, that Spirits who experienced being humans, then created their own experience in the next phase, but he had no way of explaining it to the public audience he was dealing with at the time, so he just called it his "Fathers Kingdom" but didn't elaborate on what to expect [except to say that it would be good for all those who believed it] is that really a lie or otherwise being deceitful?
Or could you accept that it was a good way to help prevent others bad situations, if people learned to believe good things rather than bad things would happen to them?
How then could a person trust anything else?


Do you think that part of Christs ministry was to help people learn to trust their selves instead of trusting in what others told them? Could it be that in trusting Christ, one is also trusting oneself in Christ?

Why would God do that to us instead of just sending His Son - His Truth - to speak and lead us into all truth (as Christ said He came to do)?
But Christ didn't stay here with people Tammy. He left people to experience the ripple effects of his message. His message also mentioned hellish experience that people could experience, and this has created a whole industry in itself.
For over 2000 years, this has been having its effect.
Christ was the primary "Soul Retriever" of this phase. And like all soul retrievers, they don't hang around giving instruction constantly and pampering to the demands of children. They impart their message and they leave it up to those who hear that message, to make something of that message which has the potential to transform their circumstances. [1 Corinthians 13:11 ] Do you think that by choosing to do this, Christ was expecting individuals to stand on their own two feet with the support of the message he gave to them? Do you think Christ was only focused upon His Sheep? Do you understand that Christ was more focused upon creating shepherds of the sheep. [Matthew 28:19-20]
And just how would anyone ever know illusion from reality, or if the next next phase is just another illusion? That IS messed up, William. Where is the love in that? The truth?


It is there Tammy. Just as it is here. The only REALITY is The Creator. The Creation is the illusion.
When you see a magician entertaining folk, do you think the folk are unaware they are being deceived by an illusion?
Of course not. People know that they are being tricked. The bigger the illusion the better. The harder it is to figure out the illusion, the more awed we are by the one performing the illusion.
Once the illusion s figured out, it is no longer an illusion for the one(s) who figure it out.
Is the magician unloving for creating illusions for people to experience?
Lies do not come from the Truth. Christ (the Truth) does not lie.
Nor does Christ tell the whole truth. Nor did the god of the bible tell the whole truth. The form helps create the illusion, and hides The Creator from our eyes, but the thrill of realizing The Creator is beyond compare.
The misinformation being told by some, is that we are not Spirits in form, but that we were created as human beings. We are the form itself, not the Spirit within the form. The Creator did not tell us this misinformation. Nor did The Creator tell us the whole truth.
The Creator would rather we thrill in the experience of working it out for ourselves...and we all have each other for that.
Many in the past have been put to death [murdered] as "pagans" for rejecting the misinformation that we are human beings in favor of embracing the truth that we are Spirit beings incarnated into human forms.
People lie though, sometimes purposely, sometimes because they have been lied to or because they misunderstand something.


Yes indeed...as the last sentence of my paragraph above bears witness to.

I understand that it is not easy to sort the truth from the lies Tammy. Sometimes it means we have to put aside some dear-to-our-heart beliefs...which is why I see no deceit in The Creator allowing Individuate Spirit ["people" as you call these] beliefs, to create experiences in the next phase....I see it as a loving act.
Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?
See above. (Though of course a forever torment would be worse than a temporary torment, but deceit is deceit. I did touch on that, in post 53, I think.)
Yet you do agree do you not, that allowing Spirits to suffer for their actions for a time, is no different than allowing Spirits in human forms on this planet to suffer hellish experiences, even those who are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time [like being caught in the crossfire] or who are good folk who have to suffer the actions of evil folk [as Jesus himself said some of his followers would have to do] and you do not see this as a unloving act [or command] from a 'sicko' entity, do you?

As to a temporary hellish experience, even that the Spirit suffering it has created that for itself, The Creator allowing that to happen, shouldn't be seen as a 'deceitful' act on The Creator's part, should it?
I have mentioned that [from my studies] that there are "Soul Retrievers" [as these types of Spirits are sometimes referred to] who are constantly working with Spirits under these self-created illusions, to try and help them out of their self made predicaments.
I do not know if you have read where I have mentioned this - perhaps you haven't. Does that information help you in any way which might assist your understanding of this process in the next phase whereby you might consider it acceptable? The process is not a deception but a process which is - while long and sometimes arduous - has a completely perfect result - eventually...[see post #33 for an analogy of that process]
Peace to you Tammy.

User avatar
tam
Savant
Posts: 6443
Joined: Fri Jun 19, 2015 4:59 pm
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 324 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #147

Post by tam »

Peace to you,


I just want to point out that here we are in the exact same place we were in just before you said that I had not addressed the OP. Just sayin'.
William wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:00 am
tam wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:08 am Peace to you,
[Replying to William in post #145]

What isn't acceptable is your claim that these hellish experiences cannot happen in the next phase just on the grounds that you don't believe they do.
Good thing I never used "I don't believe it" as grounds for anything. I gave the reasons for why I do not accept it.
Well that is something yes? But then are you saying you wouldn't accept it even if it were true?
No. But again: I have no reason to even entertain the idea much less to accept it; and I do have every reason to reject it... since it is a) not from love (see previous post), and b) not only did Christ not teach it, it goes against what He does teach.

Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
There is a true God.

I don't know what you mean by 'predestination' or 'true predestination God'. Timothy seemed to mean a God that predestines people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell'. I don't use terms like 'sicko', but I certainly don't see the point or the love in that (predestining people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell').
I think it is obvious enough what Timothy was saying. There appears to be two notions of the god of the bible. One is that he predestines everything and the other is that he somehow seals himself off from the omniscience he is attributed with having.

Those [like yourself] who see an all-knowing creator entity allowing people to suffer hellish circumstances as a being who cannot be a loving entity, don't seem to understand the contradiction in relation to our current reality experience, which we know allows for people to experience hellish situations here on this very planet, and yet claim that the entity who created it and allows such to happen, is 'loving'.
This has already been addressed.

The suffering that occurs here and now is real; it comes as a consequence to actions (either one's own actions or the actions of others). The suffering that you are speaking of is illusion, deception, a lie - and this is in contradiction to what Christ said He would do (lead His sheep into all truth, come back and bring us - who belong to Him - to where He is, where He prepares a place for us in the Father's house.)

I am sure that as a seeker of truth you can appreciate how such contradiction doesn't sit well with those who hear it, especially when those who argue that the god of the bible is a loving being even that he allows people to suffer hellish experiences on this planet, but also argue that such an entity cannot be a loving being if he allows suffering to go on in the next phase.
There is no contradiction. Because it is not the suffering itself, per se, it is the deception, the lie. The contradiction that is actually being presented is that you are claiming lies and deceptions come from the Truth.

Surely you can appreciate how such a contradiction doesn't sit well with those who hear it?
Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?
The experience that timothy referred to (eternal torment) would not be from love
I agree with you there.
An illusion/deception/lie (temporary or permanent suffering) would also not be from love considering that Christ promised to lead His sheep into all truth, and that He came to bear witness to the truth, and that He is Himself the Truth. Him leading His sheep into illusion/deception would make His promise a lie.
If the deception is simply in what folk have heard told to them, and they choose to believe it, how is that a lie?
I don't think you really addressed what I said.

Christ does not claim to lead His sheep into lies, but into all truth. He prepares a place for us. Do you see that? HE PREPARES the place. Not us, not our own minds. He, Christ, prepares a place for us (who are in Him) and takes us to be with Him where He is.


If Christ knew of this process in the next phase, that Spirits who experienced being humans, then created their own experience in the next phase, but he had no way of explaining it to the public audience he was dealing with at the time, so he just called it his "Fathers Kingdom" but didn't elaborate on what to expect [except to say that it would be good for all those who believed it] is that really a lie or otherwise being deceitful?
William, the things you say contradict what He said about the Kingdom, His Father's house. But this has been explained in our previous conversations. Just click on a link to any one of those.


Or could you accept that it was a good way to help prevent others bad situations, if people learned to believe good things rather than bad things would happen to them?
You just finished saying that (you think) Christ taught 'hell' and 'hellish' experiences. So how is this system preventing bad situations? Your whole scenario here is based on there BEING "hellish experiences".

This is another contradiction in the system that you believe in.

How then could a person trust anything else?


Do you think that part of Christs ministry was to help people learn to trust their selves instead of trusting in what others told them? Could it be that in trusting Christ, one is also trusting oneself in Christ?
HOW could a person trust anything, if everything they ever experienced is an illusion? If they cannot even trust Christ or God to tell them the truth?

This is yet another contradiction, William. It makes no sense. There is nothing good in the system that you are presenting. There is no point to it; it is just messing with people. That is not good.
Why would God do that to us instead of just sending His Son - His Truth - to speak and lead us into all truth (as Christ said He came to do)?
But Christ didn't stay here with people Tammy.
Not in the flesh... but He is Himself with us (who belong to Him). Teaching us, leading us, refining us, training us.

"If anyone loves me, they will keep my word. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with(in) them."

And if you need them, there are multiple examples in what is written of Christ continuing to teach and lead His sheep, even after His death and resurrection and ascension.

He left people to experience the ripple effects of his message. His message also mentioned hellish experience that people could experience, and this has created a whole industry in itself.
For over 2000 years, this has been having its effect.
Christ was the primary "Soul Retriever" of this phase. And like all soul retrievers, they don't hang around giving instruction constantly and pampering to the demands of children. They impart their message and they leave it up to those who hear that message, to make something of that message which has the potential to transform their circumstances. [1 Corinthians 13:11 ] Do you think that by choosing to do this, Christ was expecting individuals to stand on their own two feet with the support of the message he gave to them? Do you think Christ was only focused upon His Sheep? Do you understand that Christ was more focused upon creating shepherds of the sheep. [Matthew 28:19-20]
Christ is the Shepherd of His sheep.

His sheep listen to His voice. He calls His sheep to come to Him, to follow Him, to remain in Him, to learn from Him.

And just how would anyone ever know illusion from reality, or if the next next phase is just another illusion? That IS messed up, William. Where is the love in that? The truth?


It is there Tammy. Just as it is here. The only REALITY is The Creator. The Creation is the illusion.
When you see a magician entertaining folk, do you think the folk are unaware they are being deceived by an illusion?
Of course not. People know that they are being tricked. The bigger the illusion the better. The harder it is to figure out the illusion, the more awed we are by the one performing the illusion.
Once the illusion s figured out, it is no longer an illusion for the one(s) who figure it out.
Is the magician unloving for creating illusions for people to experience?
A - I thought you said people deceived themselves. Are you now saying that the magician (the Creator) is the deceiver?

B - I doubt the audience would be so enthralled if the magician made it so that they suffered 'hellish experiences' as you called them.

C - people don't go to a magician seeking truth. The magician promises to entertain them, awe them, put on a good show for them. But he does not promise to give people truth. On the other hand, Christ - the TRUTH - promises truth, speaks truth, leads His people into all truth. He does not deceive His people. He certainly would not give His own a lie, when they seek the truth. Just like the Father would not give a snake to a son who asks for a fish. (Luke 11:10-12)

Lies do not come from the Truth. Christ (the Truth) does not lie.
Nor does Christ tell the whole truth. Nor did the god of the bible tell the whole truth.


You are implying deceit when you say things like this, and that is what you have with the system you are presenting.

But there is no deceit in Christ. He does not lie to us.
People lie though, sometimes purposely, sometimes because they have been lied to or because they misunderstand something.


Yes indeed...as the last sentence of my paragraph above bears witness to.

I understand that it is not easy to sort the truth from the lies Tammy.
I need only remain in Christ (the Truth).

But perhaps you should put some more thought into this system that you are presenting. Because the system itself is an illusion; deception. Not truth. That is not even in question. The entire system that you have presented is, by its very nature, a lie.

It cannot come from the Truth.
Sometimes it means we have to put aside some dear to our heart beliefs...
Indeed.
which is why I see no deceit in The Creator allowing good beliefs to create good experiences in the next phase....I see it as a loving act.
Deception is deception. Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not deception. Even your words above are somewhat deceptive, since good experiences are not all that you are saying will occur; and are not even the topic of this thread.

So a) you have deception (not a good thing) and b) you have "hellish experiences" (also not a good thing)

Or

Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?
See above. (Though of course a forever torment would be worse than a temporary torment, but deceit is deceit. I did touch on that, in post 53, I think.)
Yet you do agree do you not, that allowing spirits to suffer for their actions for a time, is no different than allowing humans on this planet to suffer hellish experiences, even those who are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time [like being caught in the crossfire] or who are good folk who have to suffer the actions of evil folk [as Jesus himself said some of his followers would have to do] and you do not see this as a unloving act [or command] from a 'sicko' entity, do you?

As to a temporary hellish experience, even that the spirit suffering it has created that for itself, The Creator allowing that to happen, shouldn't be seen as 'deceit' on The Creator's part, should it?
Since you are using Christ to try and give this system that you are presenting an 'appearance' of truth, then yes, it would be a deception, not the least of which because it is the opposite of what Christ promised and taught.

As previously stated.

I have mentioned that [from my studies] that there are "Soul Retrievers" [as these Spirits are sometimes referred to] who are constantly working with Spirits under these self-created illusions, to try and help them out of their self made predicaments.

I do not know if you have read where I have mentioned this - perhaps you haven't. Does that information help you in any way which might assist your understanding of this process in the next phase whereby you might consider it acceptable?
I have seen you mention this and it changes absolutely nothing, except to add superfluous to these 'illusions'. I mean, if you're gonna send 'beings' to get people out of these 'illusions', then why create that system to begin with? What in the world is the point? Why not simply tell people the truth to begin with?


It has absolutely nothing to do with Christ or with His Father, or with anything that Christ said and promised.


Peace to you Tammy.
Thank you and peace also to you, William.

Online
User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14002
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 906 times
Been thanked: 1629 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #148

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #148]
The suffering that occurs here and now is real; it comes as a consequence to actions (either one's own actions or the actions of others). The suffering that you are speaking of is illusion, deception, a lie - and this is in contradiction to what Christ said He would do (lead His sheep into all truth, come back and bring us - who belong to Him - to where He is, where He prepares a place for us in the Father's house.)
I see you misunderstanding is that you have yet to appreciate the underlying premise. [UP]

Underlying Premise [UP]
"The Creator is the only reality"

Therefore;

IF
the UP is Truth...
THEN
The creation is subsequently not real. [illusion - perspective has to reflect that truth...]
You just finished saying that (you think) Christ taught 'hell' and 'hellish' experiences. So how is this system preventing bad situations? Your whole scenario here is based on there BEING "hellish experiences".
That is the other side of the coin so to speak Tammy.
Spirits who have experienced human form and existence in this here and now develop attitudes, beliefs personalities etc...which altogether determine the type of experience that they will create for themselves in the next phase. Generally those not in Christ, generate what those who are in Christ think of as 'bad' experience...

This system therefore is set up to help prevent bad situations happening for those who believe in good situations.

Once one understands the truth of that, one is better equipped to change ones perception and discard any perception which contradicts the underlying premise. [UP]

The suffering that occurs here and now is not less illusion than the suffering which occurs in the next phase.
The fact that it can be experienced as real, doesn't change the fact that it is not real.
Christ does not claim to lead His sheep into lies, but into all truth. He prepares a place for us. Do you see that? HE PREPARES the place. Not us, not our own minds. He, Christ, prepares a place for us (who are in Him) and takes us to be with Him where He is.
Christ leads us into all truth and the ALL Truth is the UP. Try to see that. His "preparing the place" is the same as we preparing the place. It is a co-creation wrought through him being in us and us being in him. See? It is a change in the way WE self identify.
William, the things you say contradict what He said about the Kingdom, His Father's house. But this has been explained in our previous conversations. Just click on a link to any one of those.
Tammy - I have already given counter explanation to your explanation. The KEY is with the UP. Do you disagree with the UP? [Your explanation makes it appear that you do disagree with the UP]
HOW could a person trust anything, if everything they ever experienced is an illusion? If they cannot even trust Christ or God to tell them the truth?
Christ has told the truth. The Creator is Reality, not the creation. It is not about trust once the individual Spirit accepts that. The trust transforms into a certain knowing which cannot be denied.
This is yet another contradiction, William. It makes no sense. There is nothing good in the system that you are presenting. There is no point to it; it is just messing with people. That is not good.
"Messing with people"? How does teaching Spirits the truth of their illusions equate to 'messing' with them?
A - I thought you said people deceived themselves. Are you now saying that the magician (the Creator) is the deceiver?
No. The perception Spirits have of their experiences are is what deceives said Spirits.
B - I doubt the audience would be so enthralled if the magician made it so that they suffered 'hellish experiences' as you called them.
Some Spirits want hellish experiences Tammy. Not eternal ones, of course...that would be silly.
The audience is not so enthralled with the current reality experience, but neither are they aware that it isn't actual real. Nothing which is temporary is real, and only The Spirit [Creator] is eternal.
C - people don't go to a magician seeking truth. The magician promises to entertain them, awe them, put on a good show for them. But he does not promise to give people truth. On the other hand, Christ - the TRUTH - promises truth, speaks truth, leads His people into all truth. He does not deceive His people. He certainly would not give His own a lie, when they seek the truth. Just like the Father would not give a snake to a son who asks for a fish. (Luke 11:10-12)
As I said, Christ had to teach to his audiences ability to understand. This truth would have gone right over their heads, if he had not found ways in which to introduce said truth in bytes...
You are implying deceit when you say things like this, and that is what you have with the system you are presenting.

But there is no deceit in Christ. He does not lie to us.
Just because someone does not tell the whole truth does not imply that they are lying Tammy. It may simply be because the whole truth is beyond their listeners ability to comprehend, so bytes of truth are acceptable. The Creator does not give us more than we are able to handle at any one time. We digest the byte, and in doing so are being prepared for the next byte.
I need only remain in Christ (the Truth).

But perhaps you should put some more thought into this system that you are presenting. Because the system itself is an illusion; deception. Not truth. That is not even in question. The entire system that you have presented is, by its very nature, a lie.

It cannot come from the Truth.
No. It is not a lie Tammy. You believe you have all the truth you require right now right here in Christ. Yet "All the truth you require right now" is not = to "All Truth".
Deception is deception.
This system/process is not deception. It is a means of bringing Spirits back into the fullness of knowing. You believe that you are already there? That you have already being lead into all truth?

Yet, now that you have been made aware of this process, how will you ever really know if what you experience in the next phase is something created for you, or something created by you? And why - if it were created by you, should you thus think of the process as fraudulent?
It really should not make any difference to you, if your expectations of the next phase become your reality.

But if your next phase reality experience is not ALL truth, wouldn't you want to know about that as well? {See my mention of "Soul Retrievers"}
I have seen you mention this and it changes absolutely nothing, except to add superfluous to these 'illusions'. I mean, if you're gonna send 'beings' to get people out of these 'illusions', then why create that system to begin with? What in the world is the point? Why not simply tell people the truth to begin with?
The answer to that is easy Tammy. I have mentioned it before...
It is because people are so tied up in the belief they have been encouraged to formulate, that they would not believe the truth, so "bytes" are required....but we cannot stay on the baby food [sheep fodder] forever...we have to mature as Spirits eventually otherwise how will we ever gain Full Knowledge?

myth-one.com
Savant
Posts: 7079
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 4:16 pm
Has thanked: 31 times
Been thanked: 85 times
Contact:

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #149

Post by myth-one.com »

William wrote: Fri Apr 16, 2021 4:55 pm [Replying to tam in post #148]
The suffering that occurs here and now is real; it comes as a consequence to actions (either one's own actions or the actions of others). The suffering that you are speaking of is illusion, deception, a lie - and this is in contradiction to what Christ said He would do (lead His sheep into all truth, come back and bring us - who belong to Him - to where He is, where He prepares a place for us in the Father's house.)
I see you misunderstanding is that you have yet to appreciate the underlying premise. [UP]

Underlying Premise [UP]
"The Creator is the only reality"

Therefore;

IF
the UP is Truth...
THEN
The creation is subsequently not real. [illusion - perspective has to reflect that truth...]
Why do you post in tongues [PIT]?

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 8904
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1217 times
Been thanked: 305 times

Re: Predestination Theology

Post #150

Post by onewithhim »

myth-one.com wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:58 pm
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 9:35 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 8:02 pm
William wrote: Thu Apr 15, 2021 5:56 pm Spiritual bodies are not "Spirits"
Then what is a Spirit?
That which creates and inhabits form.
So every living thing which reproduces itself is a spirit.

And I can't remember for sure anymore, but I think you said spirits are immortal or eternal, or whatever.

If so, then every living being is an eternal spirit.
I'm just wondering where the idea comes from that "spirits are immortal." There is nothing in the Bible to back that up. Satan is a spirit, and he is destined to die after the Thousand-Year Reign of Christ. He will be "cast into the lake of fire" along with his demons, and that means complete, absolute destruction. Not life in the lake of fire.

Post Reply