Peace to you,
I just want to point out that here we are in the exact same place we were in just before you said that I had not addressed the OP. Just sayin'.
William wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 6:00 am
tam wrote: ↑Fri Apr 16, 2021 2:08 am
Peace to you,
[
Replying to William in post #145]
What isn't acceptable is your claim that these hellish experiences cannot happen in the next phase just on the grounds that you don't believe they do.
Good thing I never used "I don't believe it" as grounds for anything. I gave the reasons for why I do not accept it.
Well that is something yes?
But then are you saying you wouldn't accept it even if it were true?
No. But again: I have no reason to even entertain the idea much less to accept it; and I do have every reason to reject it... since it is a) not from love (see previous post), and b) not only did Christ
not teach it, it goes against what He
does teach.
Q:1 Is there a "True Predestination God?"
There is a true God.
I don't know what you mean by 'predestination' or 'true predestination God'. Timothy seemed to mean a God that predestines people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell'. I don't use terms like 'sicko', but I certainly don't see the point or the love in that (predestining people to be tormented for all eternity in 'hell').
I think it is obvious enough what Timothy was saying. There appears to be two notions of the god of the bible. One is that he predestines everything and the other is that he somehow seals himself off from the omniscience he is attributed with having.
Those [like yourself] who see an all-knowing creator entity allowing people to suffer hellish circumstances as a being who cannot be a loving entity, don't seem to understand the
contradiction in relation to our current reality experience, which we know allows for people to experience hellish situations here on this very planet, and yet claim that the entity who created it and allows such to happen, is 'loving'.
This has already been addressed.
The suffering that occurs here and now is real; it comes as a consequence to actions (either one's own actions or the actions of others). The suffering that you are speaking of is illusion, deception, a lie - and this is in contradiction to what Christ said He would do (lead His sheep into all truth, come back and bring us - who belong to Him - to where He is, where
He prepares a place for us in the Father's house.)
I am sure that as a seeker of truth you can appreciate how such contradiction doesn't sit well with those who hear it, especially when those who argue that the god of the bible is a loving being even that he allows people to suffer hellish experiences on this planet, but also argue that such an entity cannot be a loving being if he allows suffering to go on in the next phase.
There is no contradiction. Because it is not the suffering itself, per se, it is the deception, the lie. The contradiction that is actually being presented is that you are claiming lies and deceptions come from the Truth.
Surely
you can appreciate how such a contradiction doesn't sit well with those who hear it?
Q2: Even if hellish experiences exist for individuals, does this mean that the god is "a sicko"?
The experience that timothy referred to (eternal torment) would not be from love
I agree with you there.
An illusion/deception/lie (temporary or permanent suffering) would also not be from love considering that Christ promised to lead His sheep into all truth, and that He came to bear witness to the truth, and that He is Himself the Truth. Him leading His sheep into illusion/deception would make His promise a lie.
If the deception is simply in what folk have heard told to them, and they choose to believe it, how is that a lie?
I don't think you really addressed what I said.
Christ does not claim to lead His sheep into lies, but into all truth. He prepares a place for us. Do you see that?
HE PREPARES the place. Not us, not our own minds. He, Christ, prepares a place for us (who are in Him) and takes us to be with Him where He is.
If Christ knew of this process in the next phase, that Spirits who experienced being humans, then created their own experience in the next phase, but he had no way of explaining it to the public audience he was dealing with at the time, so he just called it his "Fathers Kingdom" but didn't elaborate on what to expect [except to say that it would be good for all those who believed it] is that really a lie or otherwise being deceitful?
William, the things you say
contradict what He said about the Kingdom, His Father's house. But this has been explained in our previous conversations. Just click on a link to any one of those.
Or could you accept that it was a good way to help prevent others bad situations, if people learned to believe good things rather than bad things would happen to them?
You just finished saying that (you think) Christ taught 'hell' and 'hellish' experiences. So how is this system preventing bad situations? Your whole scenario here is based on there BEING "hellish experiences".
This is another contradiction in the system that you believe in.
How then could a person trust anything else?
Do you think that part of Christs ministry was to help people learn to trust their selves instead of trusting in what others told them? Could it be that in trusting Christ, one is also trusting oneself in Christ?
HOW could a person trust anything, if everything they ever experienced is an illusion? If they cannot even trust Christ or God to tell them the truth?
This is yet another contradiction, William. It makes no sense. There is nothing good in the system that you are presenting. There is no point to it; it is just messing with people. That is not good.
Why would God do that to us instead of just sending His Son - His Truth - to speak and lead us into all truth (as Christ said He came to do)?
But Christ didn't stay here with people Tammy.
Not in the flesh... but He is Himself with us (who belong to Him). Teaching us, leading us, refining us, training us.
"If anyone loves me, they will keep my word. My Father will love them, and we will come and make our home with(in) them."
And if you need them, there are multiple examples in what is written of Christ continuing to teach and lead His sheep, even after His death and resurrection and ascension.
He left people to experience the ripple effects of his message. His message also mentioned hellish experience that people could experience, and this has created a whole industry in itself.
For over 2000 years, this has been having its effect.
Christ was the primary "Soul Retriever" of this phase. And like all soul retrievers, they don't hang around giving instruction constantly and pampering to the demands of children. They impart their message and they leave it up to those who hear that message, to make something of that message which has the potential to transform their circumstances. [1 Corinthians 13:11 ] Do you think that by choosing to do this, Christ was expecting individuals to stand on their own two feet with the support of the message he gave to them? Do you think Christ was only focused upon His Sheep? Do you understand that Christ was more focused upon creating shepherds of the sheep. [Matthew 28:19-20]
Christ is the Shepherd of
His sheep.
His sheep listen to His voice. He calls His sheep to come to Him, to follow Him, to remain in Him, to learn from Him.
And just how would anyone ever know illusion from reality, or if the next next phase is just another illusion? That IS messed up, William. Where is the love in that? The truth?
It is there Tammy. Just as it is here. The only REALITY is The Creator. The Creation is the illusion.
When you see a magician entertaining folk, do you think the folk are unaware they are being deceived by an illusion?
Of course not. People know that they are being tricked. The bigger the illusion the better. The harder it is to figure out the illusion, the more awed we are by the one performing the illusion.
Once the illusion s figured out, it is no longer an illusion for the one(s) who figure it out.
Is the magician unloving for creating illusions for people to experience?
A - I thought you said people deceived themselves. Are you now saying that the magician (the Creator) is the deceiver?
B - I doubt the audience would be so enthralled if the magician made it so that they suffered 'hellish experiences' as you called them.
C - people don't go to a magician seeking truth. The magician promises to entertain them, awe them, put on a good show for them. But he does not promise to give people truth. On the other hand, Christ - the TRUTH - promises truth, speaks truth, leads His people into all truth. He does not deceive His people. He certainly would not give His own a lie, when they seek the truth. Just like the Father would not give a snake to a son who asks for a fish. (Luke 11:10-12)
Lies do not come from the Truth. Christ (the Truth) does not lie.
Nor does Christ tell the whole truth. Nor did the god of the bible tell the whole truth.
You are implying deceit when you say things like this, and that is what you have with the system you are presenting.
But there is no deceit in Christ. He does not lie to us.
People lie though, sometimes purposely, sometimes because they have been lied to or because they misunderstand something.
Yes indeed...as the last sentence of my paragraph above bears witness to.
I understand that it is not easy to sort the truth from the lies Tammy.
I need only remain in Christ (the Truth).
But perhaps you should put some more thought into this system that you are presenting. Because the system itself is an illusion; deception. Not truth. That is not even in question. The entire system that you have presented is, by its very nature, a lie.
It cannot come from the Truth.
Sometimes it means we have to put aside some dear to our heart beliefs...
Indeed.
which is why I see no deceit in The Creator allowing good beliefs to create good experiences in the next phase....I see it as a loving act.
Deception is deception. Just because you do not see it does not mean it is not deception. Even your words above are somewhat deceptive, since good experiences are not all that you are saying will occur; and are not even the topic of this thread.
So a) you have deception (not a good thing) and b) you have "hellish experiences" (also not a good thing)
Or
Q:2.1 Is the god only a "Sicko" if those hellish experiences last forever for said individuals?
See above. (Though of course a forever torment would be worse than a temporary torment, but deceit is deceit. I did touch on that, in post 53, I think.)
Yet you do agree do you not, that allowing spirits to suffer for their actions for a time, is no different than allowing humans on this planet to suffer hellish experiences, even those who are simply in the wrong place at the wrong time [like being caught in the crossfire] or who are good folk who have to suffer the actions of evil folk [as Jesus himself said some of his followers would have to do] and you do not see this as a unloving act [or command] from a 'sicko' entity, do you?
As to a temporary hellish experience, even that the spirit suffering it has created that for itself,
The Creator allowing that to happen, shouldn't be seen as 'deceit' on The Creator's part, should it?
Since you are using Christ to try and give this system that you are presenting an 'appearance' of truth, then yes, it would be a deception, not the least of which because it is the opposite of what Christ promised and taught.
As previously stated.
I have mentioned that [from my studies] that there are "Soul Retrievers" [as these Spirits are sometimes referred to] who are constantly working with Spirits under these self-created illusions, to try and help them out of their self made predicaments.
I do not know if you have read where I have mentioned this - perhaps you haven't. Does that information help you in any way which might assist your understanding of this process in the next phase whereby you might consider it acceptable?
I have seen you mention this and it changes absolutely nothing, except to add superfluous to these 'illusions'. I mean, if you're gonna send 'beings' to get people out of these 'illusions', then why create that system to begin with? What in the world is the point? Why not simply tell people the truth to begin with?
It has absolutely nothing to do with Christ or with His Father, or with anything that Christ said and promised.
Peace to you Tammy.
Thank you and peace also to you, William.