Making False Images of The Creator

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Making False Images of The Creator

Post #1

Post by William »

From the thread The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife
William wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 4:11 pm
onewithhim wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 3:21 pm Where would anyone get the idea that God "breathed himself into people?" He is too great and magnificent to be reduced to being inside any human being. If anyone thinks differently, they have a very skewed view of the Creator of this universe.
That is The Great Paradox which humans have been debating since the invention of theism...

...what does "One With Him" actually mean?

And both ideas [{a}We are are separate from The Creator or {b} We are particles of The Creators Consciousness] have their own rational and appear logical to that end[answering said question].
The only difference of significance is that {a} "We are are separate from The Creator" cannot accommodate {b} ["We are particles of The Creators Consciousness"], whereas realization of {b} still accommodates {a} in the sense that {a} is regarded as [usually] the initial step one has to take in order to then - perhaps - realize {b}.

...what does "One With Him" actually mean? According to {a} it means?
It means positions [1]&[2] are rational if thought so by those who believe they are {a} "Separate from The Creator" as they have decided to bow to that belief as "The Whole Truth".

...what does "One With Him" actually mean? According to {b} it means?
It means positions [1]&[2] are based upon part truth rather than whole truth if thought so by those who believe they are {b} "We are particles of The Creators Consciousness" as they have decided to realize the significance of such a thought as being that much closer to "The Whole Truth" than {a} [1]&[2] could ever be...the realization particularly being that there is more to the overall story than meets the eye.

Problematic with those in position {a} [positions [1]&[2]] are evident in the behaviors of those who support said positions in relation to this current reality experience [Life on Earth] - perhaps because they actively resist realization of {b} on the assumption that they "could not possible behave as if they were {b}" so at best, settle for {a} as it is [at least] a starting position for a potential future moment of realization...

...when the individual is sufficiently ready for the transformation of their understanding.

Meantime, information is continuing to come, which has the potential to assist the individual with said transformation...
The image of The Creator that most Christians have adopted is one which couldn't possibly stoop to "being human" [as in the comment "Where would anyone get the idea that God "breathed himself into people?"] because the image held by the questioner is that The Creator "is too great and magnificent to be reduced to being inside any human being." and follows that, with the unsupported assertion that "If anyone thinks differently, they have a very skewed view of the Creator of this universe."

Why should one think that a being who created this universe must be vainglorious and so utterly contemptuous of the creation [specifically the human form] that said Creator would assign other - separate - consciousnesses [beings] into human form It considers somehow unworthy of Its self experiencing?
So we have an image of a kind of mad scientist mucking with things he has little to no understanding of, just to lord it over "them".

I do not see in the creation any such hint of such an image of The Creator.

What I do see is human fabrication - how most humans might behave if they were in similar position as The Creator - a false image [graven] which is created and worshiped by humans who cannot [will not?] accept that any Creator would lower Itself ["Himself" as Christians would say] so much as to be "a little lower than the angels" as the mythology has it imagined.

How indeed does the Creator create Life outside of Itself, and then deem that Life to be "less than" - even if it was created that way - where is the life The Creator used to animate the creation with being sourced, if NOT from The Creator itself?

Such as, logically this [sourcing Life elsewhere] is an unnecessary edition which is placed into the human psyche as a means of attempting to hold fast and high and almighty false image in such minds...enthroned as it is upon the imaginations of all those who believe such.

Image

The catch phrase "We are not worthy" is a significant mantra in its ability to help the individual to resist realization that they are a particle of The Creators Consciousness.

Could this type of expression be happening because the images Christians have created of The Creator are false [therefore 'skewed'] and as such, not a trustworthy source in which to find a wholesome representation of "The Creator of This Universe"?

Q: Given the above, how can any image of The Creator of The Universe be a True Image?
Last edited by William on Tue Jun 01, 2021 10:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #11

Post by William »

For those arguing that the vainglorious image of The Creator should be accepted as "True", I have yet to see any evidence from you, supporting this.

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #12

Post by PinSeeker »

William wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 4:58 pm For those arguing that the vainglorious image of The Creator should be accepted as "True", I have yet to see any evidence from you, supporting this.
Not necessary in this forum. The Bible itself -- God -- says He is the one true God. And quoting the venerable Otseng:

"The purpose of this subforum is to have a place to freely engage in debates on Christian theology with the basic assumption that the Bible can be used as a primary reference without the need to defend its authority. Responses to topics with 'but first you have to prove that the Bible is true' is not allowed here."

Perhaps the apologetics forum might be the place to make your demand for "evidence." Grace and peace to you, William.

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #13

Post by William »

PinSeeker wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 5:09 pm The Bible itself -- God -- says He is the one true God.
As should be clear enough to the average intellect, the OP is specific to theism and its images of The Creator.
Could this type of expression be happening because the images Christians have created of The Creator are false [therefore 'skewed'] and as such, not a trustworthy source in which to find a wholesome representation of "The Creator of This Universe"?

Q: Given the above, how can any image of The Creator of The Universe be a True Image?
Of course no one has to answer any questions or contribute to any threads, if they feel they are underqualified to do so.

The comment I made to those arguing that the vainglorious image of The Creator should be accepted as "True", is not related to resisting the idea that there is "One True Creator" but rather that vain-glorious images of said Creator are distortions of truth and I have yet to see any evidence, supporting this image is truthful".

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #14

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Sat May 29, 2021 5:09 pm

The image of The Creator that most Christians have adopted is one which couldn't possibly stoop to "being human" [as in the comment "Where would anyone get the idea that God "breathed himself into people?"] because the image held by the questioner is that The Creator "is too great and magnificent to be reduced to being inside any human being." and follows that, with the unsupported assertion that "If anyone thinks differently, they have a very skewed view of the Creator of this universe."
He can breathe part of Himself - holy spirit (which is the breath/blood/seed of God) into people, thereby making them His children. Similar to a child sharing the same blood as his/her parent. God breathed into Adam, and Adam became a living being (life - holy spirit - was now in Adam), and also a son. Christ breathed holy spirit onto the apostles (making them Christians; anointed ones; children of God; life - holy spirit - also now being in them). That same holy spirit was poured out at Pentecost (from God through Christ), and again is shown to be poured out on Cornelius and his family, and is poured out upon anyone who is anointed, whom Christ chooses.


The catch phrase "We are not worthy" is a significant mantra in its ability to help the individual to resist realization that they are a particle of The Creators Consciousness.
This is an entirely different claim though. It is not a 'vainglorious image' or 'particle of creator consciousness'.

We are not worthy might simply be true. Yet it does not mean that we are not or cannot be loved, saved - which begets love in turn.

Could this type of expression be happening because the images Christians have created of The Creator are false [therefore 'skewed'] and as such, not a trustworthy source in which to find a wholesome representation of "The Creator of This Universe"?

Q: Given the above, how can any image of The Creator of The Universe be a True Image?
None are a true image - except for Christ. Christ Jaheshua is the Truth and the Image of God (His God and Father, the Most Holy One). He is the One who reveals the Father as the Father truly is. Not man, not religion, not man's ideas about God (or even about "Jesus"). Christ Himself is the living image of the living God. Not the physical image per se (Christ became human, taking the form of a man, but a human is not in the physical form of God), but Christ does reveal to us His Father, as His Father truly is; His nature; His desires; etc.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #15

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #15]

So we can do away with the old images of The Creator and adopt the new images Jesus presented? But all these images come from the Bible, which is the point of the OP Tammy.

What makes your images of "The Christ" anything more true than those vainglorious images of the past?

Indeed, what is your image of "The Christ"? You still believe in the old image of the old testament idea of The Creator, do you not?

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #16

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:20 am [Replying to tam in post #15]

So we can do away with the old images of The Creator and adopt the new images Jesus presented? But all these images come from the Bible, which is the point of the OP Tammy.
A - what old images?

B - Christ (Jaheshua) does not present an image. He IS the image.

No other images of God (the Most Holy One, the God and Father of Christ) were ever permitted, because no other image could accurately represent God. The living God has a living image: Christ.
What makes your images of "The Christ" anything more true than those vainglorious images of the past?
It is not 'my image' of anyone. Christ is Himself the Image of God. I do not know what you are referring to when you say 'vainglorious images of the past'. You are saying 'image' but what you seem to mean is 'idea'. In that, you have your own ideas and you present your own 'image' of who/what you call the Creator.
Indeed, what is your image of "The Christ"? You still believe in the old image of the old testament idea of The Creator, do you not?
I'd have to know what you mean when you say 'old image of the old testament idea of the Creator'.

My God is the God and Father of Christ, the Most Holy One, JAHVEH, revealed in Christ (who is the Living Word and Image of God).


Peace again to you.

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #17

Post by William »

tam wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:00 am Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:20 am [Replying to tam in post #15]

So we can do away with the old images of The Creator and adopt the new images Jesus presented? But all these images come from the Bible, which is the point of the OP Tammy.
A - what old images?
The ones which are not newer...
B - Christ (Jaheshua) does not present an image. He IS the image.
Describe that image.
No other images of God (the Most Holy One, the God and Father of Christ) were ever permitted, because no other image could accurately represent God. The living God has a living image: Christ.
Show us that this image you speak of is true.
What makes your images of "The Christ" anything more true than those vainglorious images of the past?
It is not 'my image' of anyone.
Of course it is.
Christ is Himself the Image of God.
What does that mean?

I do not know what you are referring to when you say 'vainglorious images of the past'.
It is explained adequately enough in the OP. It is a good idea to read the OP before posting in any thread.
You are saying 'image' but what you seem to mean is 'idea'.
Ideas are a significant part of the reason why images form.

In that, you have your own ideas and you present your own 'image' of who/what you call the Creator.
Really? What image have I formed about The Creator that you can reflect back at me as an image?
Indeed, what is your image of "The Christ"? You still believe in the old image of the old testament idea of The Creator, do you not?
I'd have to know what you mean when you say 'old image of the old testament idea of the Creator'.


That The Old testament image of The Creator is the same entity which Jesus referred to as his "Father."
My God is the God and Father of Christ, the Most Holy One, JAHVEH, revealed in Christ (who is the Living Word and Image of God).
Have you seen either?

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #18

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:05 pm
tam wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 2:00 am Peace to you,
William wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 1:20 am [Replying to tam in post #15]

So we can do away with the old images of The Creator and adopt the new images Jesus presented? But all these images come from the Bible, which is the point of the OP Tammy.
A - what old images?
The ones which are not newer...
That was a non-answer. Describe what you mean. Describe the 'image', you know, like you have asked me to do:

B - Christ (Jaheshua) does not present an image. He IS the image.
Describe that image.
He Himself.

His words came from the Father, taught to Him by His Father. His actions, His nature, reflect the Father.

For example: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice."

We can know that is what God desires because a) Christ told us, and b) because Christ is Himself merciful.

No other images of God (the Most Holy One, the God and Father of Christ) were ever permitted, because no other image could accurately represent God. The living God has a living image: Christ.
Show us that this image you speak of is true.
What do you mean by 'show you'? Have you ever shown anyone the things that you claim? What exactly do you mean when you say 'show you'?

What makes your images of "The Christ" anything more true than those vainglorious images of the past?
It is not 'my image' of anyone.
Of course it is.
I did not invent Christ. He is not an image that I made. I simply believe Him, and look/listen to Him to know His Father, as He has said to do.
Christ is Himself the Image of God.
What does that mean?
It means that He perfectly reflects His Father; He is the perfect representation of His Father. If you know Christ, then you know His Father as well. Not because they are the same person, but because Christ is the perfect image/reflection/representation of His Father. Including the fact that the living God must have a living image. A dead thing cannot represent the living God.

I do not know what you are referring to when you say 'vainglorious images of the past'.
It is explained adequately enough in the OP. It is a good idea to read the OP before posting in any thread.
If you read my post, you might see that I did not agree with a 'vainglorious image', as you described it. But then you asked me what makes Christ different than those 'vainglorious images' of the past, so I am asking for clarification. Of course, an easy answer (regardless of your clarification) would be that Christ did become human. So if God Himself (the God and Father of Christ) did not become human - and Christ is the image of God - there must be a reason other than what you are calling 'vainglory'. And since Christ is not 'vainglorious', His Father is not either.

(vainglorious meaning 'excessive' pride in one's accomplishments; empty pomp or show; etc, but if the pride or the glory is warranted, then it is not excessive and it is not 'vainglorious')
You are saying 'image' but what you seem to mean is 'idea'.
Ideas are a significant part of the reason why images form.
An idea did not create Christ.

But if this is what you think 'image' means (an idea), then I have no idea why you don't think you have formed an 'image' of what/who you call the Creator. You have certainly presented 'ideas' about the Creator on this forum. Are you denying that?
In that, you have your own ideas and you present your own 'image' of who/what you call the Creator.
Really? What image have I formed about The Creator that you can reflect back at me as an image?
See above.
Indeed, what is your image of "The Christ"? You still believe in the old image of the old testament idea of The Creator, do you not?
I'd have to know what you mean when you say 'old image of the old testament idea of the Creator'.


That The Old testament image of The Creator is the same entity which Jesus referred to as his "Father."
As shown through Christ. Not as shown through the OT, or through 'ideas' or through religion or through nature or through anything else.

Yes, the Most Holy One of Israel is written about in the OT. But the OT is not His image; the OT is a collection of books. Christ - a living being - is the image of God.

My God is the God and Father of Christ, the Most Holy One, JAHVEH, revealed in Christ (who is the Living Word and Image of God).
Have you seen either?
Physically, with my physical eyes? No, though that can't be what you are asking about because that makes no sense.



Peace again to you.

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #19

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
PinSeeker wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 11:29 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Wed Jun 02, 2021 3:09 am JEHOVAH is never depicted as residing inside a human(s).
Oh, but He is:

"Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, rooted and built up in Him and established in the faith, just as you were taught, abounding in thanksgiving. See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily, and you have been filled in Him, Who is the head of all rule and authority."
Yes (... well not "Jehovah"; but JAH, the God and Father of Christ, yes).


Christ says this as well:

My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity.


Peace again!

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Re: Making False Images of The Creator

Post #20

Post by William »

[Replying to tam in post #19]

If you do not know what it is about vainglorious imagery in Biblical writ Tammy, I do not understand why you bothered to post in this thread.

Your making statements about Christ are without any substances. They are just words which appear to proclaim obscure ideas, which is why you were asked to clarify what you mean by such phrases as "None are a true image - except for Christ" to the question "How can any image of The Creator of The Universe be a True Image?"

You have made a claim that there is at least one Image which can be regarded as True, as an answer to the question. Yet this reader asks you for more information and you answer with more obscurity.

When asked to describe the 'true image' you claim exists, you simply state "He Himself" as if that is any coherent answer.

You add to that "His words came from the Father, taught to Him by His Father. His actions, His nature, reflect the Father." but don't say how you know this information is true.

You then take a part of this information you claim is true, and write; "For example: "I desire mercy, not sacrifice.""

And then explain how you know this is true because "We can know that is what God desires because a) Christ told us, and b) because Christ is Himself merciful."

How do you know these things are true? How do you show me that this image is not a false one?

You write "I did not invent Christ. He is not an image that I made. I simply believe Him, and look/listen to Him to know His Father, as He has said to do." but how is that helpful in answering the question put forth in the OP? Can you describe for example, how you "look/listen" to the Christ in order to know that the image given of The Creator is a true image?

I think ideas create images and images create ideas. I do not deny that I present ideas about The Creator - here on this forum. As the OPQ asks. "Q: Given the above, how can any image of The Creator of The Universe be a True Image?"

My ideas always accompany reasons for why I think The Creator [as presented by religions] are false and why - IF there is a Creator of this Universe, THEN what in nature can we see which would give us clues to The Creators overall personality. In that, The Universe is there to see - one can "look/listen" to the Universe but this idea you present that this "Christ" image presented to you which you "look/listen" to, is not there to see and observe and obtain information which gives us clear certainty that your claim that "None are a true image - except for Christ" to the question "How can any image of The Creator of The Universe be a True Image?" is indeed a
true
claim.

Until you can provide us with those details, I see no reason to abandon the OP as a debunked thing.

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