#1 Jesus on hell

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Wootah
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#1 Jesus on hell

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”


Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #71

Post by PinSeeker »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:57 am The Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna, was Jesus' illustration of complete obliteration.
Nope. Unending "burning" (punishment).
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:57 am It wasn't the fire itself that he was focusing on, it was the RESULT of the fire in the dump.
Right, the focus was the garbage, which was still burning. Thus, the illustration. It's very much parallel with His illustration of the state of the rich man in Hades (after his death) in Luke 16.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 8:57 am The fire completely obliterated the trash that was thrown there...
Nope. And that's the point. One of them, anyway.

Round and round we go...

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #72

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to PinSeeker in post #72]

My viewpoint is just as valid as yours seems to be for yourself. Jesus did not teach that the fires of Gehenna would literally last forever concerning a particular evil person. If a dead body was thrown onto the dump (Gehenna), it would burn up to nothing in due time. That was Jesus' point. The evil person would be gone, just as the trash on the dump was burned up and didn't exist anymore.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #73

Post by PinSeeker »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:27 pm My viewpoint is just as valid as yours seems to be for yourself.
Yeah we can leave it at that; yes, your viewpoint is just as valid to you as mind is to me. I mean that's not saying much, but we can leave it at that.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:27 pm Jesus did not teach that the fires of Gehenna would literally last forever concerning a particular evil person.
He used it as a concrete example that the punishment would last forever.
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 6:27 pm If a dead body was thrown onto the dump (Gehenna), it would burn up to nothing in due time. That was Jesus' point. The evil person would be gone, just as the trash on the dump was burned up and didn't exist anymore.
Nope. That's your misreading into it. But so be it.

We can leave it at that, I think. Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #74

Post by myth-one.com »

Wootah wrote: Fri Jul 09, 2021 8:04 am https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?v ... 18%3A21-35
21 Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”

22 Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. 23 Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. 24 And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. 26 The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 27 Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.

28 “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ 29 So his fellow servant fell down [a]at his feet and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ 30 And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. 31 So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. 32 Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. 33 Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ 34 And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

35 “So My heavenly Father also will do to you if each of you, from his heart, does not forgive his brother [c]his trespasses.”
Jesus tells a parable where the master actually tortures the unforgiving servant until he pays all that was due to him and after the parable says God will do this to each of us if we do not forgive each other.

* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
* We can't pay our debt against God so we know the punishment is eternal.

How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
The Bible is divided into two testaments. Under the original testament, the only path to everlasting life was to remain without sin, because the wages of sin is death. Therefore, forgiveness of sin was critically important. This is the context under which Jesus spoke the parable above. Lack of sin and forgiveness of sin determined one's eternity at that time. Thus the stressing of forgiveness.

But under the New Testament, mankind becomes an heir to everlasting life by accepting Jesus as one's Savior. So sin, forgiven or not, no longer controls our eternity.

The New Testament became effective and the original testament became the Old Testament when Jesus died on the Cross.
===========================================================
Wootah wrote:* You can't torture a dead person or an annihilated person, so we know we have to be alive to be tortured.
The wages of sin is death -- not torture.

The only being said to be tortured day and night for ever and ever in the everlasting lake of fire is the devil.

The devil has to be restrained forever because he is a spirit which cannot die.

Any man or woman cast into the lake of fire quickly perish.

Nonbelievers will die, never to live again. Believers will be born again as spiritual beings which live forever.
Wootah wrote:How is that not a judgement of hell that supports traditional doctrine?
"Traditional doctrines" generally teach that mankind is born with an immortal soul which lives forever.

This contradicts the Bible which states repeatedly that mankind dies, and that the reward of the saved is everlasting life.

This initial false belief seals the Bible from mankind's understanding. That is, the remainder of the Bible must be interpreted to support this initial falsehood suggested to mankind by the serpent in the first few pages of Genesis:
Genesis 3:4 wrote:And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever. Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated the lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!



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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #75

Post by Wootah »

[Replying to myth-one.com in post #75]

Hi mythone,
The wages of sin is death -- not torture.

The only being said to be tortured day and night for ever and ever in the everlasting lake of fire is the devil.
Yes and we die in this fallen world. Hell is afterwards.

So when Jesus told this parable he meant Satan and not people?
Nonbelievers will die, never to live again. Believers will be born again as spiritual beings which live forever.
When they died did they pay for their sins or did they die not paying for their sins?

If they died not paying for their sins: Is God unable to be just?
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #76

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm The Bible is divided into two testaments.
Yes, but it's only one story, not two. There is one page in every Bible that can be torn out: the blank one between the Old and New Testaments.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm Under the original testament, the only path to everlasting life was to remain without sin, because the wages of sin is death.
It still is, as Paul makes clear in Romans 6:23.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm Therefore, forgiveness of sin was critically important. This is the context under which Jesus spoke the parable above. Lack of sin and forgiveness of sin determined one's eternity at that time. Thus the stressing of forgiveness.
And so it remains.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm But under the New Testament, mankind becomes an heir to everlasting life by accepting Jesus as one's Savior. So sin, forgiven or not, no longer controls our eternity.
Absolutely, but confession, repentance, and forgiveness is still absolutely necessary. Thanks be to God, if we confess our sins, the Lord is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness... because of Jesus, of course.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm The New Testament became effective and the original testament became the Old Testament when Jesus died on the Cross.
No, both are still "effective," it's just that a former commandment is set aside because of its weakness and uselessness (for the law made nothing perfect), and, on the other hand, a better hope -- Christ Jesus -- is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm The wages of sin is death -- not torture.
No one is tortured, so that's a non sequitur.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm The only being said to be tortured day and night for ever and ever in the everlasting lake of fire is the devil.
Tormented, not tortured, and not by anyone (much less God).
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm The devil has to be restrained forever because he is a spirit which cannot die.
Oh, my... <eyeroll>
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm Any man or woman cast into the lake of fire quickly perish.
Actually, they are dead long before that...
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm Nonbelievers will die, never to live again.
Well, they remain dead for eternity
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm Believers will be born again as spiritual beings which live forever.
Likewise, believers, at the time of Jesus's return have long since been born again spiritually and are alive and in Christ even prior to their physical death from this world. When Christ returns, they are reunited with their physical bodies... and remain alive spiritually, of course, for eternity.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm "Traditional doctrines" generally teach that mankind is born with an immortal soul which lives forever. This contradicts the Bible which states repeatedly that mankind dies, and that the reward of the saved is everlasting life. This initial false belief seals the Bible from mankind's understanding. That is, the remainder of the Bible must be interpreted to support this initial falsehood suggested to mankind by the serpent in the first few pages of Genesis:
Genesis 3:4 wrote:And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Satan lied when he informed Eve that she would live forever.
Actually, Satan's lie is clearly not merely that she would not die, but that she would not die that very day, as God told Adam (and her) previously in the first few(er) pages of Genesis (2:17), and that she would be like God, knowing good and evil (3:5). This was Eve's temptation -- to be like God, knowing good and evil. And previous to Genesis 3, Adam and Eve must have been alive in the same way that they became dead -- again, on that very day -- in Genesis 3! The irony in this is that people who believe as you do don't believe Adam and Eve to really have died that very day they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. The inference would be, "Hey, they obviously didn't die, because they got up and left the Garden of Eden!" Well, they did in fact die, that very day, just like God said they would, even though they were still conscious, breathing, and walking around on the earth. So from the very beginning, we see that death, loss of life, has nothing to do with mere existence, that death is something very different than simply not existing, or even loss of consciousness. And likewise, life means much more than merely existing consciously, because it is obviously possible to be dead while existing consciously.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Jul 20, 2021 11:02 pm Mainstream Christian theologians have incorporated the lie into their theologies for nearly two thousand years!
In light of the above, I suggest re-examination... :) But of course, you can do what you want, and not do what you don't want. You are surely your own person. :D

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #77

Post by Eloi »

Christendom dedicated itself to teaching a "hell of fire to torture souls" not because they learned it from the Christians, but because it was a belief of the majority of pagans in the times of the empires. On the other hand, the Bible taught from the beginning that death was the end of conscience (Ps. 146: 4) and that dead persons cannot praise God (Ps. 6: 5; Is. 38:18, 19). The apostates began to teach this doctrine much later, and they tried to connect it with some biblical expressions or words of Jesus, especially his parables.

To top it all, they didn't even have a well-reasoned biblical explanation for that idea, to the point that I've heard some of the followers of that doctrine say that Jesus himself had to go to hell and be burn by the flames there in order to save others. They don't even know how to differentiate between Gehenna (lake of fire), Sheol, Tartarus ... and they even invented a "temporary hell" that ceased to exist when Jesus Christ was resurrected. All kinds of strange ideas are taught in Christendom out there, and they all respond to the spiritual darkness of that confused religious world institution just because they don't want to accept the biblical truth about the state of the dead.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #78

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am Christendom dedicated itself to teaching a "hell of fire to torture souls"...
Again, maybe at one time, some folks in... "Christendom"... taught that, but never widely, then or today. And maybe there are some, well, hacks, that teach that today, but that's not Biblical in any sense. And that derails most of what you say, here...
Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am the Bible taught from the beginning that death was the end of conscience (Ps. 146: 4)...
No, but physical death is the end of physical life on earth...
Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am ...and that dead persons cannot praise God (Ps. 6: 5; Is. 38:18, 19)...
Yeah, nobody can do anything physical when they are physically deceased (which is what happens when their breath, you know, ceases)...
Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am The apostates began to teach this doctrine much later, and they tried to connect it with some biblical expressions or words of Jesus, especially his parables.
Nope. I mean, this would be to indirectly accuse Jesus Himself of apostasy, which is a no-no. :)
Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am To top it all, they didn't even have a well-reasoned biblical explanation for that idea, to the point that I've heard some of the followers of that doctrine say that Jesus himself had to go to hell and be burn by the flames there in order to save others.
Yeah, now this I don't doubt. There are some wacked out ideas out there -- and always will be, until Jesus comes back, of course -- for sure. I mean, Jesus did have to pay the wages of sin on our behalf to make redemption/salvation possible, for sure, but... you know.
Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am They don't even know how to differentiate between Gehenna (lake of fire), Sheol, Tartarus...
I agree, but neither do Jehovah's Witnesses... :)
Eloi wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 11:10 am ...just because they don't want to accept the biblical truth about the state of the dead.
Well no, they get it wrong, but not, generally speaking, concerning the general whereabouts of the dead in eternity. That's on those who believe in annihilationism, which includes folks of several different persuasions. As I said to myth-one above, people who believe in annihilation don't believe Adam and Eve to really have died that very day they partook of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Their inference, while perhaps unintended, is, "Hey, they obviously didn't die, because they got up and left the Garden of Eden!" Well, they did in fact die, that very day, just like God said they would (Genesis 2:17), even though they were still conscious, breathing, and walking around on the earth after the Fall in Genesis 3. So from the very beginning, we see that death, loss of life, has nothing to do with mere existence, that death is something very different than simply not existing, or even loss of consciousness. And likewise, life means much more than merely existing consciously, because it is obviously possible to be dead while existing consciously.

As always, grace and peace to all.

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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #79

Post by myth-one.com »

Myth-one.com wrote:The wages of sin is death -- not torture.
The only being said to be tortured day and night for ever and ever in the everlasting lake of fire is the devil.
Wootah wrote:Yes and we die in this fallen world. Hell is afterwards.
Random House College Dictionary wrote:Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.
The Bible speaks of two possible human "deaths," the first and the second. The first physical death is appointed unto all mankind:
Hebrews 9:27 wrote:And it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
But just as all mankind will die their first "death," likewise every human will be resurrected to a second life:
I Corinthians 15:22-23 wrote:For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Since every human ever born will suffer the first "death," it is not truly a death by the above definition as it is not permanent. Therefore, the Bible typically (and correctly) refers to man's first death as sleep, slumber, or rest.

Believers will be born again as everlasting spiritual beings at the Second Coming, while deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans a thousand years after the Second Coming:
Revelation 20:5 wrote:But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Wootah wrote:So when Jesus told this parable he meant Satan and not people?
No, He spoke this parable to people.
Myth-one.com wrote:Nonbelievers will die, never to live again. Believers will be born again as spiritual beings which live forever.
Wootah wrote:When they died did they pay for their sins or did they die not paying for their sins?
The first death is appointed to all humans, so the first death of any human does not pay the wages of anyone's sins.

The second death spoken of in the Bible is the wages or payment for an individual's sins:
(Revelation 20:15 wrote:And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Wootah wrote:If they died not paying for their sins: Is God unable to be just?
The wages of their sins is the second death -- see above.

We all die the first death not having paid for our sins -- because the wages for sins is the second death.

Also, note that since all mankind is appointed to die the first death, Jesus Christ, being a man, was appointed to His first death on the cross. Thus His death on the cross is not what actually saves us. That is, being appointed as a characteristic of all mankind, it cannot be used to atone for any other human's sin.

Jesus Christ was a man born under the original covenant between God and man. He lived a sinless human life and died on the cross. Thus He is the only man to ever live a sinless life under that covenant. He is the only heir apparent under that covenant!

God then allows Jesus to offer His inheritance of everlasting life under the original testament to those who accept and believe in Him as their Savior under the New Testament Covenant.

God's rational is that since by the one man Adam, sin was passed to all mankind; then by the gift of one man many may likewise be saved.

Thus everlasting life becomes possible by man accepting the gift of God through Jesus Christ. Those doing so have their names written in the Book of Life as joint heirs of everlasting life with Jesus Christ under the New Testament Covenant:
John 3:16 wrote:
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

:D



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Re: #1 Jesus on hell

Post #80

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:12 pm The wages of sin is death -- not torture.
Not sure how many times I've said that no one gets tortured by anyone, but hey, here I am now saying it yet again. No one gets tortured, ever, for anything, by anyone (much less God).
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:12 pm The only being said to be tortured day and night for ever and ever in the everlasting lake of fire is the devil.
No, even the devil is not and will never be tortured. Being in torment and being tortured are two totally different things. Now, it might be said that being in hell will be torturous, but in the same sense, these conversations some of us have to have with other posters in this forum are just that, torturous. Figuratively speaking, having these same silly conversations and going through these same things over and over again is torture.
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:12 pm ...every human will be resurrected to a second life.
I commend you on this.
myth-one.com wrote: Wed Jul 21, 2021 7:12 pm Believers will be born again as everlasting spiritual beings at the Second Coming, while deceased nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans a thousand years after the Second Coming...
Nope. Some are born again -- spiritually, having up to that time been dead in their sin, which is the natural state of all from birth -- in this life, born of the Holy Spirit, and thus become believers, having been set free from their bondage/slavery to sin. This is happening all through the course of the millennium (not after it) of Revelation 20:1-6.

At the end of the millennium, deceased unbelievers will certainly be resurrected as humans, but at the same time deceased believers are, at Jesus's one second coming. Then the Judgment will occur, unbelievers sent away (Revelation 20:7-15), the kingdom is fully ushered in, and eternity begins. As Jesus says in John 5, the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear (the Son of Man's -- Jesus Himself) voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment. There is no 1000 years (or even 1000 milliseconds) in between the two, it is all part of the same event, the one physical, second resurrection.

Grace and peace to you.

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