Christian Salvation?

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Christian Salvation?

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According to the Bible, what minimum qualifications are required for Christian Heavenly salvation?

- Does a stillborn baby receive a free pass?
- Do all deceased children receive a free pass, prior to the age of enlightenment?
- Is it mandatory to believe, worship, and also attempt to follow Hm; while still knowing you will fall short of perfection in your attempts?
- Is some sort of baptism a requirement for salvation?
- Can you lack conviction that God even exists, but still be selected by your judged upon works?
- Must you keep specific Commandments all the time?
- Does blasphemy of the Holy Spirit guarantee damnation, regardless of later repentance of this prior deemed offense (i.e.) the born again Christians might be screwed?
- Are earnest deathbed conversions, by way of belief and repent to the Christian God, enough?
- Must you love God more than you love anyone on earth?
- Can you be a devout believer/follower, but choose not to give away the majority of your wealth to ones more in need than you?
- Can you be saved if you practice monogamous homosexuality until death?
Last edited by POI on Fri Aug 20, 2021 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #171

Post by PinSeeker »

myth-one.com wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:36 pm Actually, sin no longer affects our salvation.
Sure, well, there's no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #172

Post by POI »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:25 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:10 pm
1. Are you suggesting that it is okay to receive a blood transfusion, as long as you do not tell the elders?
No, I'm suggesting that essentially it is nobody's busness but the individual and no Jehovahs Witness would seek to find out something that is medically and legally (and scripturally) personal.

POI wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:10 pm
2. Wouldn't God still know you are receiving a transfusion anyways?

Yes He would.
POI wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:10 pm Assuming He knows all, is getting a transfusion considered a 'gross sin' to God?

Yes, I believe it would be. But in a circumstance where only God (and ones doctor) knows, God (not any human) will have to judge the case. There are no secret sins before the Almighty.




JW


What is the biblical significance of BLOOD?
viewtopic.php?p=909886#p909886

Why do Jehovahs Witnesses not accept blood transfusions?
viewtopic.php?p=845393#p845393
Okay, so blood transfusions are considered a "gross sin". Is the congregation's discovery of a member committing a "gross sin" grounds for "disfellowship"?

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #173

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PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:36 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:25 pm
POI wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:10 pm Assuming He knows all, is getting a transfusion considered a 'gross sin' to God?
Yes, I believe it would be. And God (not any human) will judge that person if unrepentant. There are no secret sins before the Almighty.
Just breaking in for a moment here...

So, Jehovah's Witness, we both know how much God, the Creator and giver of life, in Whom we live and breathe and have our being, values life. And God gave us really smart people we call doctors to develop medicines, and vaccines, and (in this case) procedures like blood transfusions to help preserve life. Plus, the person(s) that donated that blood are actually helping to preserve life, too. Why would you call accepting those gifts a sin, gross or otherwise? I think I know what you would say, but I won't put words in your mouth. So, why?

Grace and peace to you.
Great question... I might already know the answer too.. :)

I'll get to your response later, when I have more time :)

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #174

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:39 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:36 pm Actually, sin no longer affects our salvation.
Sure, well, there's no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

Grace and peace to you.
Sin no longer affects the salvation of anyone, believers or nonbelievers.

Whosoever believeth in Jesus will have everlasting life.

But whosoever rejects Jesus should not be scorned.

Who are we to question their decision?

If they do not desire to participate in everlasting life, then that was probably the correct choice for them.
Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #175

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myth-one.com wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 10:50 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:39 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 6:36 pm Actually, sin no longer affects our salvation.
Sure, well, there's no more condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)

Grace and peace to you.
Sin no longer affects the salvation of anyone, believers or nonbelievers.

Whosoever believeth in Jesus will have everlasting life.

But whosoever rejects Jesus should not be scorned.

Who are we to question their decision?

If they do not desire to participate in everlasting life, then that was probably the correct choice for them.
If Jesus is not accepted and believed in as their Savior, then that person will personally pay the wages of sin that God has declared. For those who have accepted and believed in Jesus as their Savior, then His atonement and payment of the wages of sin on their behalf is effectual for them, and thus, as I said, there is no more condemnation for sin upon them.

Grace and peace.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #176

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 12:31 pm
If Jesus is not accepted and believed in as their Savior, then that person will personally pay the wages of sin that God has declared. For those who have accepted and believed in Jesus as their Savior, then His atonement and payment of the wages of sin on their behalf is effectual for them, and thus, as I said, there is no more condemnation for sin upon them.

Grace and peace.
But you have continually insisted that the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment.

That makes it impossible for anyone to completely serve the wages for our sins -- as the wages for our sins is never ending.

My question to you is:

Is Jesus now serving our everlasting conscious torment?

Jesus is said to be at the right side of God.

This is the conflict you must resolve if you define the wages of sin as being everlasting conscious torment.

===============================

The root cause of your dilemma is your belief that some part of all mankind is immortal.

But if mankind is immortal, then the wages of sin cannot be death as the scriptures repeatedly state!

==============================

Satan has to be laughing.
Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #177

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myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm But you have continually insisted that the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment.
No, that is what you have (many times now) foisted upon me. Everlasting punishment, which you would agree with, but punishment is not punishment at all if one is not conscious, and that punishment is a torment, or anguish, to them.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm That makes it impossible for anyone to completely serve the wages for our sins -- as the wages for our sins is never ending.
So when Jesus cried, on the cross, "It is finished," it was... not really finished? :)
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm Is Jesus now serving our everlasting conscious torment?
If Jesus was sinless ~ which we would certainly agree He was ~ then why would He be having to entire any sort of punishment at all? He sacrificed Himself on our behalf even though perfectly innocent. This is true sacrifice.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm This is the conflict you must resolve if you define the wages of sin as being everlasting conscious torment.
There is no "conflict."
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm The root cause of your dilemma is your belief that some part of all mankind is immortal. But if mankind is immortal, then the wages of sin cannot be death as the scriptures repeatedly state!
The dilemma is yours. Regarding life under the sun (this life), man is certainly not immortal.
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm Satan has to be laughing.
He may very well be... :)

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #178

Post by POI »

PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 pm Yes, it is impossible to prevent being drawn to Him. God's purposes are unthwartable. If He purposes to do this (draw individuals to him), then yes, He will do it, and it is irresistible.
Okay, it is impossible to avoid being drawn to Hm, if He selects you.
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 pm But that does not preclude any individual's "free will."
Wait, it is not impossible to avoid being drawn to Him, if He selects you?

You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are in violation of basic logic. Either it is impossible, or it is not impossible.
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:10 am 2. Why would 'universalism' violate God's justice and His glory? Does He say this, or are you saying this?
The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23). God has set this standard. It has to be met. I am saying this, but only because He does. :) So... yes. :D
We already agree all mere humans sin. So everyone dies. He can still elect everyone to be inexorably drawn to Him. Why does He only elect some and not others, if all mere humans are sinners?
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 pm
POI wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:10 am If sin is sin, there would be no 'but' ;) There is also no 'lesser/greater' if "sin is sin". And if heinousness refers to intent, then you are just as culpable for your intentional lies, as you are for any other intentional 'sin'.
Sigh. Heinousness obviously refers to the degree to which something ~ in this case a sin ~ is "shockingly cruel and inhumane," as any simple Google search will reveal. So, it may seem lesser or greater in our eyes, but this is irrelevant. God says the wages of sin is death. He does not say the wages for murder (one of the Ten Commandments) is one thing and the wages of lying (another of the Ten Commandments) is another. If one has sinned in any way ~ regardless of what that sin is, regardless of how many times, regardless of heinousness ~ the wages of sin is still death. In that way, sin is sin... there is no "but." The only reason I offered a "but" here was just to separate the wo assertions, the first being that sin is sin and the second regarding heinousness of any particular sin. I will say that you did make a good catch regarding my use of "intent," but I say again that heinousness is a measure of how "shockingly cruel and/or inhumane" any particular sin in our view. In God's economy, sin is still sin, regardless of heinousness.
Okay, so to mention heinousness is completely irrelevant to God. Sin is sin. According to you, the wages of sin is death. We will all also commit intentional sin, from time to time; whether you are a believer or not.
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 pm
POI wrote: Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:19 pm And you will willfully lie until you die. We've been over this... Hence, you are a heinous human being. So, how much repent, for your heinous and evil acts, is enough? I guess we still need to establish what constitutes true 'repent'? And then we can explore if the repent is a one time occurrence, to catch all passed/present/future 'sins', or if you need to repeat this act daily/other?
I've answered all these questions previously. Maybe not to your satisfaction, but no matter.
You've offered confusion, yes. But not a coherent answer (i.e.) :(

- All mere humans will sin
- Sin is sin - (heinous or not, willful intent will still be made by all)
- True repentance is not required - (as all mere humans will fall short of this standard)
- God still inexorably draws some to Him, and not others???

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #179

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POI wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:44 pm Okay, it is impossible to avoid being drawn to Hm, if He selects you.
Right. God gets what He wants. :) His purposes cannot be thwarted.
POI wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:44 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Mon Sep 13, 2021 3:32 pm But that does not preclude any individual's "free will."
Wait, it is not impossible to avoid being drawn to Him, if He selects you? You cannot have your cake and eat it too. You are in violation of basic logic. Either it is impossible, or it is not impossible.
You're drawing a false dichotomy.
POI wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 3:44 pm Why does He only elect some and not others, if all mere humans are sinners?
It's called grace, and He only gives it to some, not all. Others, though He endures with much patience, He gives up to their own foolish passions. I mean, there is such a thing as common grace, which is "common" in that it's given to all, regardless whether they realize it or not, in this life. But then there's also a particular grace, but "particular" in that it is His salvation ~ faith and new life in Christ ~ which is only given to some (His elect).
POI wrote: Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:10 am You've offered confusion, yes. But not a coherent answer...
To you. I completely understand your position. You sound much like Nicodemus here...

Grace and peace to you.

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Re: Christian Salvation?

Post #180

Post by myth-one.com »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm But you have continually insisted that the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment.
No, that is what you have (many times now) foisted upon me.
Please accept my apology!
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pmEverlasting punishment, which you would agree with, . . .
Yes, we agree that the punishment is everlasting.
Then PinSeeker continued when he wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pm. . . but punishment is not punishment at all if one is not conscious,
So you believe that the punishment is conscious.
And then PinSeeker completed the sentence when he wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pm. . . and that punishment is a torment, or anguish, to them.
And you believe the punishment is a torment.

So to add it all up, you believe the wages of sin is an everlasting conscious torment.
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm That makes it impossible for anyone to completely serve the wages for our sins -- as the wages for our sins is never ending.
So when Jesus cried, on the cross, "It is finished," it was... not really finished? :)
His human mission was finished.
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pm
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm Is Jesus now serving our everlasting conscious torment?
If Jesus was sinless ~ which we would certainly agree He was ~ then why would He be having to entire any sort of punishment at all?
Simply because you stated that Jesus paid the wages for our sins, and you claim the wages for our sins is everlasting conscious torment. Therefore, if Jesus is paying the wages for our sins, wouldn't He now be in everlasting conscious torment?

If not, then "everlasting conscious torment" cannot be the wages for our sins!
myth-one.com wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:31 pm This is the conflict you must resolve if you define the wages of sin as being everlasting conscious torment.
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 14, 2021 1:45 pmThere is no "conflict."
There is no conflict in the scriptures.

There are obvious conflicts in your claims stated above.
Lord, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

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