Is death ... the end?

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Wootah
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Is death ... the end?

Post #1

Post by Wootah »

There seems to be some disagreement about what happens when we die.

Let's see what the Bible says:
https://www.biblehub.com/genesis/2-17.htm
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
Did Adam and Eve die? Yes or No. So does God not know what death is or are you disagreeing with God?
https://biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Non Christians are regarded as dead but they all seem to be walking around (They had better get grafted in).

https://biblehub.com/john/11-26.htm
and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
John 11 deserves special mention. Jesus says to Martha and corrects her when she thinks Lazarus will rise on the last day. Not so Martha Jesus says, I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”

Jesus says we shall never die and admonishes Mary for thinking Lazarus will only rise on the last day. So either Jesus is a liar or we shall never die.

You know just to continue a theme, where Jesus dies on the cross and the curtain is torn, that is in effect no more separation between man and God. Symbolically when we pass through the curtain of death, we will find that we are more alive than ever, with God forever.

I really think many are preaching death still has a hold on Christians, still has a sting to it.

It's a serious subject. I strongly think people are making Jesus out to be a liar who disagree, I say that to highlight the implications and encourage civility in such a charged topic :).

Is death ... the end?

What is death and what does it mean according to the Bible?
Last edited by Wootah on Wed Sep 22, 2021 7:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #21

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

William wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 12:07 pm The subject of death has always intrigued humans. This is understandable as the process of human existence involves the creation of personalities, which altogether are involved in a story called 'Reality.'

As the personalities interact and grow together, characters develop, and give substance to the story unfolding.

In the course of the story unfolding, the Personalities which were created through the human experience often place something of themselves into their offspring, which allows for the personality to continue on in the story-line as the newer individual takes on the characteristics of the older personality the older individual - being influential - placed into the psyche of the newer.

This is why Personalities are able to be grouped.

Understood this way, we can see the idea that Personalities can survive death by being passed along to next generations and use of the physical human form for this purpose is how this is achieved.

But what of the individual who experiences the one life and takes on personality as a means of being able to identify as 'something' other than just being the human animal, and passes on the personality trait, like a runner passes the baton to the next runner in line?

And what of the biblical versions which attempt to answer the question regarding death? Are these talking about the death of certain personalities which are of no practical use in relation to the supposed next-level events which altogether make up the various beliefs which personalities subscribe to?

Are personalities the things being 'saved' - certain personality types which are accepted while those which are not, are 'deleted'?
"Personality types", in general, can be arranged in two main categories. The righteous, and the wicked/lawless. According to Revelation 22:14-15, the righteous will be allowed within gates (Jerusalem), whereas the wicked, the immoral, the murderers, and those who practice lying will remain outside the gates. There they can weep and gnash their teeth (Matthew 13:49-50). Those within the gates will have access to the tree of life, whose leaves are for healing (Revelation 22:2 & 14). As for death, everyone dies, but those who are not considered "accursed", will live for a minimum of 100 years. (Isaiah 65:20)

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #22

Post by William »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #21]
"Personality types", in general, can be arranged in two main categories. The righteous, and the wicked/lawless.
This type of belief is common with certain personality types, but in and of itself is not necessarily true. [Belief in something being true, does not make it so.]

What we can say is that such beliefs come from certain personality types, and that similar personality types are prone to supporting such beliefs. They will also place themselves on the favorable side...judging themselves as 'right' based upon the nature of their preferences re the beliefs their personalities adhere to.

Ultimately the question of what happens after death cannot be answered truthfully, by any personality type, because the truth of anything only comes after the fact.

It may turn out quite differently than how the personality believed that it would, and if so, this would mean that the belief held by that personality, was not the truth at all.

Or, it may turn out that everyone gets to experience what they believed in re the question of what happens in the next phase, and for them, that becomes their truth.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #23

Post by 2ndpillar2 »

William wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:30 pm [Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #21]
"Personality types", in general, can be arranged in two main categories. The righteous, and the wicked/lawless.
This type of belief is common with certain personality types, but in and of itself is not necessarily true. [Belief in something being true, does not make it so.]

What we can say is that such beliefs come from certain personality types, and that similar personality types are prone to supporting such beliefs. They will also place themselves on the favorable side...judging themselves as 'right' based upon the nature of their preferences re the beliefs their personalities adhere to.

Ultimately the question of what happens after death cannot be answered truthfully, by any personality type, because the truth of anything only comes after the fact.

It may turn out quite differently than how the personality believed that it would, and if so, this would mean that the belief held by that personality, was not the truth at all.

Or, it may turn out that everyone gets to experience what they believed in re the question of what happens in the next phase, and for them, that becomes their truth.
There is no real death according to the Maori. If they sue you, their suit continues in court after they transpire, because they are simply thought to now be living on a different plane. Now the personality that believes that is one type of personality, but since the forum is a debating "Christianity" forum, then instead of becoming a rat after death, as is done in Hinduism, or living in Valhalla for 1/2 of the Viking warriors, one can either rant, or check the graveyard grave sites, and see what happens to the dead. They are generally either eaten by the worms, stolen from the grave, or embalmed with an ensuing varying degree of decomposition. Very few find themselves located in a library card stack, labeled under different "personalities". Using empirical evidence, the conclusion would be the those that die, have not been transmuted, but remain dead until some time when they may be resurrected, which cannot be empirically proved. Most religions preach a sort of Karma, whereas what you sowed, you shall reap. According to Revelation 20:12, what you have sowed, your deeds, have all been recorded, and based upon those deeds, one shall be judged. That "white throne judgment", only happens after the millennium, which is at least 1000 years in the future. The Vikings and the Maori, will have to remain in their graves for an extended period of time. Any slaves or horses buried with the Vikings, will have to remain also. The Spirit returns to God. As for unclean spirits, they look for homes in mostly egomaniacs, or swine. The return trip of the Spirit to God appears to vary in time, as people who have died and been brought back from the dead, continue to live.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #24

Post by William »

[Replying to 2ndpillar2 in post #23]

Yes - it is interesting the different belief systems regarding death - the cultural stories which evolved around creation and life and death and the silence being filled in with mythological ideas about that.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #25

Post by Miles »

Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:00 am Is death ... the end?
So far there's no good reason to think it isn't.

Of course there are a lot of religious and mystical folk saying otherwise, but lacking any good, rational evidence it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking, which has produced quite an assortment of never-never lands. But why not, it seems to be thee universal fear demanding a resolution no matter where one falls on the Stanford-Binet.



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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #26

Post by William »

Miles wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:49 pm
Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:00 am Is death ... the end?
So far there's no good reason to think it isn't.

Of course there are a lot of religious and mystical folk saying otherwise, but lacking any good, rational evidence it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking, which has produced quite an assortment of never-never lands. But why not, it seems to be thee universal fear demanding a resolution no matter where one falls on the Stanford-Binet.



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False Dilemma/False Dichotomy

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #27

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 10:31 pm
Miles wrote: Sun Oct 17, 2021 8:49 pm
Wootah wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 2:00 am Is death ... the end?
So far there's no good reason to think it isn't.

Of course there are a lot of religious and mystical folk saying otherwise, but lacking any good, rational evidence it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking, which has produced quite an assortment of never-never lands. But why not, it seems to be thee universal fear demanding a resolution no matter where one falls on the Stanford-Binet.



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False Dilemma/False Dichotomy
So if

1. there's no good reason to think it isn't, OR
2. there's no good reason to think it is

what else could it thought to be?


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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #28

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #27]

Stating the idea that there is "no good reason to think death isn't the end" because "it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking" is more a platitude than a helpful debating technique. The expression itself is unsupported, much like the example [bolded] below;
Jesus remembered his existence before coming here, probably at his baptism, and we don't remember anything. People who claim to remember are deluding themselves, just like people who have out-of-body experiences and see a bright light, when they are on an operating table or such like. Most of us don't (those who are not deluded) have anything to remember...[LINK]
Such unsupported statements don't really help the debate process as they are inflexible, which leaves no room for actual debate. False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is a fallacy re that.

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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #29

Post by Miles »

William wrote: Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:25 am [Replying to Miles in post #27]

Stating the idea that there is "no good reason to think death isn't the end" because "it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking" is more a platitude than a helpful debating technique. The expression itself is unsupported, much like the example [bolded] below;
Excuse me, but I prefaced that with my reason; "but lacking any good, rational evidence," and if it my assessment happens to be more of a platitude, fine. Platitudes generally end up as such because they carry a good deal of truth. Now, obviously you believe there is not good reason to think death is the end. Good, then show your "good, rational evidence."..... I await.

Such unsupported statements don't really help the debate process as they are inflexible, which leaves no room for actual debate. False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is a fallacy re that.
Just because a statement leaves you with no wiggle-room doesn't necessarily make it a False Dilemma, which I've shown not to be the case here. It makes you cornered, to which I can only say, too bad, but it wasn't I who asked a question that doesn't doesn't necessarily generate debate. Take up your complaint with Wootah.



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Re: Is death ... the end?

Post #30

Post by William »

[Replying to Miles in post #29]

Such unsupported statements don't really help the debate process as they are inflexible, which leaves no room for actual debate. False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is a fallacy re that.

It doesn't matter that you prefaced that with the reason; "but lacking any good, rational evidence," because a False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is what it is regardless. Prefacing it doesn't change that fact.

Just because you have discovered no good, rational evidence to support your position, does not mean that the use of False Dilemma/False Dichotomy is validated.

You made the unsupported statement "it all comes down to unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking" and it is not up to anyone to provide evidence which might show your unsupported statement to be incorrect. If you have evidence to support that all folk who believe that death of their body is not the end of their experience amounts to "unsupported claims sprouting from wishful (needful) thinking", you need to also support your claim on the matter, and show that this is the case.

Otherwise your statement remains False Dilemma/False Dichotomy.

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