Not Needed By God

[William]

The very idea that יהוה doesn't need assistance flies in the face of all the biblical stories told. Surely you are misrepresenting יהוה in that regard.

There are no biblical stories where God has "needed assistance" he needs noone to accomplish his purpose.

The fact that He has condescended to allow humans to play a part therein does not equates to his being unable to achieved what he wants without them. The bible repeatedly refers to Jehovah as the Almighty, so logically being all powerful an omnipotent God has no need of extra input to do what he wants. If Jehovah delegates its an expression of his love and mercy as the righteous view it as a privilege to be used by God.

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?



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[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #20]

If my wife and I have a baby, we don't need it. We wanted it. Our lives do not depend on having a child.

Your wife and you and the baby you want to make together, are not almighty beings.

The QFD is not asking about human beings.

An almighty being wants something it cannot have unless it creates that something in order to THEN have what it wants.

Search "Want";
have a desire to possess or do (something); wish for.


Search "Need"
require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

"Without the assistance of anything also includes needs and wants [as things] and the creation of more things in which to fulfil those wants and needs.

Things are created because those things are otherwise lacking

Search "Create";
bring (something) into existence.

Why would an almighty being create wants and needs?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #20]

If my wife and I have a baby, we don't need it. We wanted it. Our lives do not depend on having a child.

Your wife and you and the baby you want to make together, are not almighty beings.

The QFD is not asking about human beings.

Well, only human beings are giving answers here. I can only give examples of something you and I understand that is not needed to live. That I can create but I don't need that creation. Isn't that what you are saying that Almighty God needs?

An almighty being wants something it cannot have unless it creates that something in order to THEN have what it wants.

Search "Want";
have a desire to possess or do (something); wish for.

Ok so, Jehovah wanted angels and humans. He had no need for them.

Search "Need"
require (something) because it is essential or very important rather than just desirable.

Another word defined:
Essential: absolutely necessary

Having angels and humans serve Jehovah is not a requirement or essential to Him. Their existence is not required or essential either. Jehovah would have been just fine with it being Him and Him alone, He doesn't need anything or anyone. All creation is here because He is wanted to make them and not because He needed to make them. Jehovah never lacks anything for Himself.

We NEED Him though. We need the Earth, water, food, air and all the other things He has created for us to live. We also need His guidance. Jehovah needs none of these things. He provides us with the things WE need, not what He needs. Same goes for the angels.

Going back to your God needs Satan to rule the world claim: No, He doesn't need Satan to rule world. His creation needs it so that we will know who has the right the rule. Jehovah doesn't need to prove that to anyone. He could wipe His entire creation and start over. he doesn't NEED to prove anything to anyone, it is not required or essential to Him. But He doesn't wipe us all out because He wants us to learn and live, but He doesn't need us to. This is clear in the Bible as He has and in the future He is willing to cut off anyone that is not willing to listen to Him and live by His standards.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #22]

I can only give examples of something you and I understand that is not needed to live.

To live [or to be] is not what is under debate. The QFD is not asking if anyone thinks that an almighty being exists.

QFB "Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything..."

the 'can do' assumes the almighty being is living/alive/exists and is able to create things.

Rather it is questioning the validity of an almighty being not needing/wanting anything.

QFB ...without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

Anything means everything. Everything of course, includes the almighty being as well.

Jehovah never lacks anything for Himself.

That is not the issue.
QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

The 'can do' is not indicative of the almighty being lacking anything for itself. The 'everything' is indicative of those things it can do [regarded by some] as 'not of the almighty beings self, but creations outside of itself.

We NEED Him though.

That is not the issue either.
QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

He could wipe His entire creation and start over.

Yes. For that matter an almighty being could wipe out everything and just be content within itself, without creating and therefore involving others.

But that is not what is happening, so we can speculate that it won't happen and if it did happen no one would know it happened anyway...except the almighty being.

He doesn't NEED to prove anything to anyone, it is not required or essential to Him.

Apparently this isn't true, in relation to the biblical god.

He needed to prove to Adam and Eve something.
He needed Noah in order to keep the experiment going, after he flooded the world.
He need to prove to the Egyptians that they would suffer the consequence of them not listening to him
He needed to prove to Satan that Job would remain faithful, no matter what Satan did to try and prove otherwise.
He needed non-human messengers to warn Lot to leave the city and he needed the city destroyed.
He needed Jesus to incarnate into human flesh and tell people about him.

All of these and more, are examples that the BG does NEED to prove something to everyone,but the issue is not whether it is required or essential for an almighty being to do so.

The issue;

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to William in post #23]

Can you back any of your posts up with something other than opinion? You never give anything thing other than your own thoughts.

You say things like, "Apparently this isn't true, in relation to the biblical god."
But never give scriptures to back it up. Show us the Biblical God that supports your claims using the Bible. If you can't then stop saying it.

Please, use the Bible to back up your claims or admit all you have is your opinion.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #24]

I think what you are asking for is nothing more than where exactly in the bible these things I mentioned in my last post are.

He needed to prove to Adam and Eve something.
He needed Noah in order to keep the experiment going, after he flooded the world.
He need to prove to the Egyptians that they would suffer the consequence of them not listening to him
He needed to prove to Satan that Job would remain faithful, no matter what Satan did to try and prove otherwise.
He needed non-human messengers to warn Lot to leave the city and he needed the city destroyed.
He needed Jesus to incarnate into human flesh and tell people about him.

All of these and more, are examples that the BG does NEED to prove something to everyone, but the issue is not whether it is required or essential for an almighty being to do so.

I do not see how this should be an issue for you or any other reader. We all should surely know what stories I am referring to, by the points I provided as the examples.

Are these points collectively simply my opinion re examples of the BG needing things, or do the stories they come from actually write it that way?

Or, is opinion simply how each of us choose to interpret the stories?

Or - is it just the case that I am offering more than simply my opinion when I gave those examples?

You asked for biblical examples and I gave them to you. If you feel that these are just my opinions and on that opinion, you choose to no longer engage with me, then by all means, don't.

Otherwise, address the examples I gave and tell the reader why these are not example of the BG requiring things, re the OPQFD.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to William in post #25]

I see no scriptures here just a list of opinions. There is no scriptural evidence that you have produced a list of God's needs, just what YOU think He needs or needed. You're projecting what you need on to God.

He needed to prove to Adam and Eve something. -
No He didn't. They are dead now and don't know proof of anything.

He needed Noah in order to keep the experiment going, after he flooded the world. -
No He didn't. Jehovah made man from nothing, He could have done it again if Noah had died or He could have just let all mankind die and never make another one.

He need to prove to the Egyptians that they would suffer the consequence of them not listening to him -
They are dead now too. The dead know nothing so the need to prove anything to people that were going not remember it later was pointless. So this was obviously not needed if they don't have minds to recall the proof.

He needed to prove to Satan that Job would remain faithful, no matter what Satan did to try and prove otherwise. -
He didn't need to prove to Satan anything. God doesn't answer to His creation. Jehovah could have killed Satan and be done with it.

He needed non-human messengers to warn Lot to leave the city and he needed the city destroyed. -
No He didn't. He could have just let Lot die and not given it another thought. Or He could have not destroyed the city. Or there are a ton other things He could have done. Bottom line, Jehovah didn't NEED Lot to live. He wanted him to live.

He needed Jesus to incarnate into human flesh and tell people about him. -
No he didn't. He could have made the stones preach the good news. (Luke 19:40) Or as I have said before Jehovah could have just let all mankind die. Sending no one.



Nothing you have said here is essential to God in that it's something He has no choice in matters. Jehovah has a choice in all matters. If didn't do any of the things on this list, Jehovah would just keep being God, He suffers no consequences. Thus he needs nothing.

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #26]

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

Arguing it is logically sound because if the almighty being didn't actually create anything, because it would just keep existing and therefore wouldn't do anything therefore wouldn't need the assistance of anything, therefore does create things but doesn't require those things it creates because it doesn't need those things it creates because it can do all those things that the things it creates can do, without creating those things that do all those things that it could do anyway, doesn't amount to sound logic.

[onewithhim]

[2timothy316 post_id=1057693 time=1638213517 user_id=13243]
[William post_id=1057692 time=1638212989 user_id=8427]
[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #12]

Logically and scripturally sound.
"The God who made the world and all the things in it, being, as he is, Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in handmade temples; nor is he served by human hands as if he needed anything." - Acts 17:24, 25

Given God gave Satan temporary rulership over the Earth, and had his reasons for doing so, God obviously needs Satan in that role, for the time being.

[Given that Satan is not a human, he can serve God in this way with his non-human hands.]

So you're moving the goal post...

Nope. I am reminding christians of the bigger picture of their mythology.

You started with one thing and started adding more. That's moving the goal post. Regardless of your moving the goal post there is no where you can move it where Jehovah God needs His creation.

Obviously creating something means that in the creating of that something, one has a need of that something and cannot achieve what it needs, without said something.

No it doesn't. If my wife and I have a baby, we don't need it. We wanted it. Our lives do not depend on having a child. Nor does Jehovah need angels or humans.

Perhaps you could define what a need is and what a want is. There is a difference.

Well said.

Jehovah has given the honor of some humans reigning with His Son out of love for them and all other humans. He didn't need to assign any human or spirit person for that matter to do anything, but He has provided a great privilege for many to reign with Jesus, and it is being sensitive to humans' needs to allow other humans to "rule" over them and provide guidance and empathy to them and can do so because they were also raised as physical humans on the earth.

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[2timothy316]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #26]

QFB Is the idea that an almighty being can do everything without the assistance of anything, logically sound?

Arguing it is logically sound because if the almighty being didn't actually create anything, because it would just keep existing and therefore wouldn't do anything therefore wouldn't need the assistance of anything, therefore does create things but doesn't require those things it creates because it doesn't need those things it creates because it can do all those things that the things it creates can do, without creating those things that do all those things that it could do anyway, doesn't amount to sound logic.

Do you not understand the term 'Almighty God'? That if He wanted, He can do everything. He doesn't need you, me or angel to do anything. He has no need to do anything either. He also doesn't need you to find logic in it. As it was stated in post 14, "The reasoning in post 2 that God needs humans to exist in order to have someone to condescend* to is false." viewtopic.php?p=1057678#p1057678

[William]

[Replying to 2timothy316 in post #29]

Do you not understand the term 'Almighty God'?

Why add the word 'God' to the term? I don't understand the term the way you wrote it.

I was thinking earlier that Almighty - being two words made into one...
Search "Almighty Meaning"
having complete power; omnipotent.

...All and Mighty

Such a being should easily be able to experience being frightened

The Almighty and Fear