For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

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Miles
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For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #1

Post by Miles »

.

Consider:

Luke 1249-:53
49 Jesus continued speaking: “I came to bring fire to the world. I wish it were already burning! 50 There is a kind of baptism[ that I must suffer through. I feel very troubled until it is finished. 51 Do you think I came to give peace to the world? No, I came to divide the world! 52 From now on, a family of five will be divided, three against two, and two against three.

53
A father and son will be divided:
The son will turn against his father.
The father will turn against his son.
A mother and her daughter will be divided:
The daughter will turn against her mother.
The mother will turn against her daughter.
A mother-in-law and her daughter-in-law will be divided:
The daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
The mother-in-law will turn against her daughter-in-law.”


Luke 14:26

26 “If you come to me but will not leave your family, you cannot be my follower. You must love me more than your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters—even more than your own life!

Ever see anyone do any of the above? I haven't. In fact, Jesus makes a great prediction, which, honestly, I've also never seen happen.


Matthew 10:34-36
34 “Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace. I came to bring trouble. 35 I have come to make this happen:

‘A son will turn against his father.
A daughter will turn against her mother.
A daughter-in-law will turn against her mother-in-law.
36 Even members of your own family will be your enemies.’


So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?


Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #51

Post by JehovahsWitness »

LITERAL FIRE


DID THE THREE HEBREWS DIE AND GO TO HELL?
Daniel 3:88
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. For he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us out of the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved us out of the midst of the fire.

Anyone that knows the story of Daniels three friends knows it is the story of three young faithful men that were thrown into a literal firey furnace but miraculously did NOT die .

Image


It is clearly not a reference to some kind of after death torture reserved for the wicked.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #52

Post by Miles »

.

Replies to JehovahsWitness's posts 48, 49, 50, 51


Illustration,
Yup. "In hell and torment" And what is the mechanism of that torment in hell? How about the agony of fire that's specifically mentioned.


Figure of speech/hyperbole
"Are Jesus words at Matthew 26:24 (Mark 9:42) evidence of a torturous afterlife?" No. but neither are Jesus's words at Matthew 4:7 and Mark 12:17.

IOW, So what? Mark 9:43 says hell is the place of "unquenchable fire."


Symbolism [Gehenna: rubbish dump]

"Are Jesus words at Matthew 5:22 (GEHENNA) to be taken literally?" Sure, as long as the fires mentioned refer to hell. And other than an impossible verse to reconcile with your position, why not? I also fail to see any suggestion that it's symbolism of any kind.

Just as a point bearing on the proper translation of Matthew 5:22, of the 61 Bibles I checked "Gehenna" appears 5 times whereas "hell" is used 54 times. Almost 11 times more. And as an FYI:

"Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). Named in the New Testament in Greek form (from the Hebrew Ge Hinnom, meaning “valley of Hinnom”), Gehenna originally was a valley west and south of Jerusalem where children were burned as sacrifices to the Ammonite god Moloch. This practice was carried out by the Israelites during the reigns of King Solomon in the 10th century bc and King Manasseh in the 7th century bc and continued until the Babylonian Exile in the 6th century bc. Gehenna later was made a garbage centre to discourage a reintroduction of such sacrifices.
source: Encyclopaedia Britannica


Metaphor
(I assume you mean "simile")
Other than grasping at straws here, I see nothing indicating "on fire with flames that come from hell itself" as being a simile, or even a metaphor. James 3:6 unequivocally states that the flames come from hell. And, of course, one needs fire in order to get flames.


Poetry/song.

Yeah, this is the weak entry on my list; however, whether poetry or song, it does reference burning even to the lowest hell, and makes a direct link between hell and fire (pretty much can't have burning without fire).


Literal fire

"Did the three Hebrews die and go to hell?" Not sure about dying, but the verse certainly puts them in hell where they were "delivered . . . out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved . . . out of the midst of the fire." So, yeah, they did go to hell, but who cares if this particular verse was "not a reference to some kind of after death torture reserved for the wicked"? It does describe hell as a place "of the burning flame" and "fire."


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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #53

Post by JehovahsWitness »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:19 am LITERAL FIRE


DID THE THREE HEBREWS DIE AND GO TO HELL?
Daniel 3:88
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. For he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us out of the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved us out of the midst of the fire.

Anyone that knows the story of Daniels three friends knows it is the story of three young faithful men that were thrown into a literal firey furnace but miraculously did NOT die .

Image


It is clearly not a reference to some kind of after death torture reserved for the wicked.

Miles wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:21 pm... but the verse certainly puts them in hell ... It does describe hell as a place "of the burning flame" and "fire."

Well if you look closely at the verse it does not such thing. The narrative actually says God delivered the men ...
(a) from hell

(b) from death

(c) from flammes

What it does not do is say all three were one and the same thing. Perhaps you do well to clarify what you are trying to establish, that fire exists? or that there is a place after death where the "immortal souls" of the wicked are tortured with fire ? If your point is simply that fire exists then congratulations, furnaces have fire in them.

* The Hebrew word [SHEOL] translated in some bibles as "HELL" refers to the metaphoric grave of mankind, the final resting place of the dead LEARN MORE here : http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 70#p969970


If however you are extrapolating from that some kind of generality, one has to wonder if they had died at sea and the bible spoke of them as going to a WATERY grave (a watery HELL) you would now be arguing that "hell is wet".

JONAH 2: 1-3 - King James Bible

1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly, 2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice. 3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #54

Post by JehovahsWitness »

SYMBOLISM
Mark 9:43
And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell [GEHENNA], to the unquenchable fire.







In Mark 9:43 Jesus literally named the area he was talking about ; a location his listeners would have been well familiar with called GEHENNA . According to the Encyclopaedia Britannica "Gehenna ... was made a garbage centre". However, when one references something literal in a way that is impossible, then this is a good indication of metaphor, figure of speech or symbolism.
To illustrate: An exasperated father tells his drug addicted son "Your life's going down the toilet" Whilst toilets are real, one cannot be used to flush down a life , since life is a condition. So real toiilet becomes a symbol/ metaphoric toilet representing that which is useless or ruined
The literal fire in Gehenna was certainly not "unquenchable" and the context is obviously hyperbolic so it is only reasonable to conclude Jesus was using the location symbolically to make a point similar to the father in my illustration.


To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLE "HELL", THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD and ...HELLFIRE TORTURE DEBUNKED
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Dec 24, 2022 4:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #55

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Miles in post #1]
So, what's going on here? Have YOU turned against your mother or father and the other members of your family? Is no one a true follower of Jesus or can Christians simply disregard such troublesome verses?
In your eyes, it would seem so.

In my eyes, those verses are not troublesome but are accurate, and have been fulfilled by so many for some 2,000 years.

Yes, I have gone against my own father and mother on these matters, being a true follower of Jesus.

Is Jesus simply an utter failure here?
No, he is right on the button here.

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #56

Post by Miles »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 6:01 pm
JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 9:19 am LITERAL FIRE

Miles wrote: Tue May 24, 2022 5:21 pm... but the verse certainly puts them in hell ... It does describe hell as a place "of the burning flame" and "fire."

Well if you look closely at the verse it does not such thing. The narrative actually says God delivered the men ...
Daniel 3:88
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. For he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us out of the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved us out of the midst of the fire.
First of all, "For he hath delivered us from hell" does put them in hell. You can't be delivered from a place you never were.

Secondly, because the relevant sentence has no period until the verse's end, the events, as narrated, are related to hell. So the delivery "out of the midst of the burning flame," AND being saved "out of the midst of the fire" indicate both delivery and saving was from hell. Hell then being described as having burning flame and fire.


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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #57

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to Miles in post #56]
Daniel 3:88
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. For he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us out of the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved us out of the midst of the fire.
Daniel 3:88 does not exist . Daniel 3 finishes long before 88.

The Bible help I used has no scripture using those words just as you quoted them. Not in Daniel and not anywhere else in the Bible.

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #58

Post by Difflugia »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:12 amDaniel 3:88 does not exist . Daniel 3 finishes long before 88.

The Bible help I used has no scripture using those words just as you quoted them. Not in Daniel and not anywhere else in the Bible.
That's Catholic Daniel, translated from the Old Greek ("Septuagint") rather than the Hebrew of the Masoretic Text. Here's Daniel 3:88 from the Catholic NRSV:
“Bless the Lord, Hananiah, Azariah, and Mishael;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
For he has rescued us from Hades and saved us from the power of death,
and delivered us from the midst of the burning fiery furnace;
from the midst of the fire he has delivered us.
My pronouns are he, him, and his.

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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #59

Post by Miles »

Checkpoint wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:12 am [Replying to Miles in post #56]
Daniel 3:88
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. For he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us out of the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved us out of the midst of the fire.
Daniel 3:88 does not exist . Daniel 3 finishes long before 88.
Depends on the Bible. Try the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, The New American Bible (Revised Edition), The New Catholic Bible. The Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition. Or the New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition.

Daniel 3:88 New American Bible (Revised Edition)
88 Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord;
praise and exalt him above all forever.
For he has delivered us from Sheol,
and saved us from the power of death;
He has freed us from the raging flame
and delivered us from the fire.




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Re: For Christians. Are You A Follower Of Jesus? It's Highly Doubtful

Post #60

Post by Checkpoint »

Miles wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 2:32 pm
Checkpoint wrote: Wed May 25, 2022 4:12 am [Replying to Miles in post #56]
Daniel 3:88
O Ananias, Azarias, and Misael, bless ye the Lord: praise and exalt him above all for ever. For he hath delivered us from hell, and saved us out of the hand of death, and delivered us out of the midst of the burning flame, and saved us out of the midst of the fire.
Daniel 3:88 does not exist . Daniel 3 finishes long before 88.
Depends on the Bible. Try the Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition, The New American Bible (Revised Edition), The New Catholic Bible. The Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition. Or the New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition.

Daniel 3:88 New American Bible (Revised Edition)
88 Hananiah, Azariah, Mishael, bless the Lord;
praise and exalt him above all forever.
For he has delivered us from Sheol,
and saved us from the power of death;
He has freed us from the raging flame
and delivered us from the fire.


Fair enough. Point taken.

That is how that verse should read. It does not mistranslate the word "Sheol" into the overused English "hell", but instead leaves it untranslated.

Sheol" has no fire or raging flame, which we associate with "hell".

Rather, it is what is decribed in this verse, "the power of death".

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