Do animals have spirit?

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Do animals have spirit?

Post #1

Post by Inquirer »

I have two Italian Greyhounds, here's a picture of them:

Image

Are these animals just lumps of matter or is there something more to them? Is it only people that are not lumps of matter?

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #81

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:03 am No, the nutrients they ingest is the source of that.

If you disagree, please stop eating and drinking and see how well you do living off the energy that God's spirit provides.
Well then its not the equivalent then: My bad. Perhaps we should have stopped here ...

Kylie wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:27 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:28 am
....The spirit (ruah) is never spoken if as carrying the thoughts and personality of the person after death.

DEATH Biblically at death, a person ceases to exist, with no part of them (the person) surviving.


WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SPIRIT ?

Of course when your computer breaks down, electricity doesn't cease to exist, so the bible speaks of the spirit "returning" to God, as in the energy remains to be used elsewhere. Just as if you unplug your computer the units of energy can now be used to power your toaster or the vaccume cleaner. Or a new computer.

WHAT HAPPEN TO THE SOUL ?

It ceased to exist anywhere. The expression "immortal soul" is nowhere to be found in the bible because souls are physical flesh and blood organisme which can never me immortal.


Is this clear or is it still a little confusing?




No, it's quite clear.
Emphasis MINE


I take it that it it was {to quote you} "quite clear" it means you grasped the meaning of what is being said. Thus you perceived a meaning in what was said so it was not "meaningless". That my meaning is clear (or at the least quite clear) is the most I can ask if you.

It's been nice talking to you, have an excellent day.



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INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #82

Post by onewithhim »

Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:07 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 amNo, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.
Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down.

This isn't a mystery.
You said that it is the food that gives life. I made the point that if you have a dead person and you put food into their mouth, they are not going to receive life by that food. You don't seem to be understanding the points being brought out here. Life comes through God's Spirit which is the breath of life.

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #83

Post by William »

"Spirit" et al is a religious name for Energy.

Furthermore, by assigning the Energy as being conscious, one makes a GOD of it.

Further to that even, when one assigns an image to the GOD, one attempts to make a costume for energy to prance about it.

viewtopic.php?p=1083234#p1083234

From the link;
William: Time is the effect Energy has upon the QT. Both QT and Energy are eternal, whereas time is not, re the interaction. It only lasts for as long as Energy is interacting with QT.

Bust Nak: Ah huh. So when would that stop?

William: That depends upon what relation consciousness/mind has with it.

It is the observer not the observed, which measures the movements of objects and pronounces 'time' as a conceptual thing [of the mind] rather than a real thing [of the physical]. Sometimes folk just conflate non physical things with physical things, which is why you are arguing that time is a physically real thing. Rather, time is a conceptionally real thing.

As such, as long as there is consciousness to observe the effects of the eternal energy upon the eternal physical QF, the process won't stop.
Remove consciousness from the dynamic, and the process of Energy/QF interaction will continue to go on as it has always gone on - eternally.

The only thing which would have 'stopped' is the thing which acknowledges the existence of the Energy and the QF. If that were to happen, then 'time' would cease to be, because time is a concept of mind [consciousness] and neither the QF or the Energy would have any practical use for how their interactions are being understood. They simply are being what they have always been.

[Since we do not know, we needn't assume that consciousness has not always existed as part of that process. It is an interesting notion.]

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #84

Post by Kylie »

JehovahsWitness wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 10:52 am
Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:03 am No, the nutrients they ingest is the source of that.

If you disagree, please stop eating and drinking and see how well you do living off the energy that God's spirit provides.
Well then its not the equivalent then: My bad. Perhaps we should have stopped here ...

Kylie wrote: Sat Jun 25, 2022 12:27 am
JehovahsWitness wrote: Mon Jun 20, 2022 1:28 am
....The spirit (ruah) is never spoken if as carrying the thoughts and personality of the person after death.

DEATH Biblically at death, a person ceases to exist, with no part of them (the person) surviving.


WHAT HAPPENS TO THE SPIRIT ?

Of course when your computer breaks down, electricity doesn't cease to exist, so the bible speaks of the spirit "returning" to God, as in the energy remains to be used elsewhere. Just as if you unplug your computer the units of energy can now be used to power your toaster or the vaccume cleaner. Or a new computer.

WHAT HAPPEN TO THE SOUL ?

It ceased to exist anywhere. The expression "immortal soul" is nowhere to be found in the bible because souls are physical flesh and blood organisme which can never me immortal.


Is this clear or is it still a little confusing?




No, it's quite clear.
Emphasis MINE


I take it that it it was {to quote you} "quite clear" it means you grasped the meaning of what is being said. Thus you perceived a meaning in what was said so it was not "meaningless". That my meaning is clear (or at the least quite clear) is the most I can ask if you.

It's been nice talking to you, have an excellent day.



JEHOVAH'S WITNESS
I was simply pointing out that your position seems to have led you to a contradiction.

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #85

Post by Kylie »

onewithhim wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:09 am
Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:07 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 amNo, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.
Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down.

This isn't a mystery.
You said that it is the food that gives life. I made the point that if you have a dead person and you put food into their mouth, they are not going to receive life by that food. You don't seem to be understanding the points being brought out here. Life comes through God's Spirit which is the breath of life.
Please reread what I said.

I said, "Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down."

Putting food into the mouth is not the process which sustains life.

If you put food into your mouth and then nothing else, you will die just as quickly as someone who doesn't have any food at all.

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #86

Post by onewithhim »

Kylie wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:17 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:09 am
Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:07 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 amNo, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.
Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down.

This isn't a mystery.
You said that it is the food that gives life. I made the point that if you have a dead person and you put food into their mouth, they are not going to receive life by that food. You don't seem to be understanding the points being brought out here. Life comes through God's Spirit which is the breath of life.
Please reread what I said.

I said, "Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down."

Putting food into the mouth is not the process which sustains life.

If you put food into your mouth and then nothing else, you will die just as quickly as someone who doesn't have any food at all.
Yes, that is why the food cannot be the source of life....it just keeps life going after the spirit or breath of life has been infused into that person. That is the argument YOU made.....that food is the source of the person being alive. So, no, the food KEEPS the person alive. You seem confused. Do you see my point?

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #87

Post by William »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:16 pm
Kylie wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:17 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:09 am
Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:07 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 amNo, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.
Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down.

This isn't a mystery.
You said that it is the food that gives life. I made the point that if you have a dead person and you put food into their mouth, they are not going to receive life by that food. You don't seem to be understanding the points being brought out here. Life comes through God's Spirit which is the breath of life.
Please reread what I said.

I said, "Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down."

Putting food into the mouth is not the process which sustains life.

If you put food into your mouth and then nothing else, you will die just as quickly as someone who doesn't have any food at all.
Yes, that is why the food cannot be the source of life....it just keeps life going after the spirit or breath of life has been infused into that person. That is the argument YOU made.....that food is the source of the person being alive. So, no, the food KEEPS the person alive. You seem confused. Do you see my point?
The OP asks us if animals are just lumps of matter or is there something more to them? Is it only people that are not lumps of matter?

"Energy" has been injected into the discussion. How does Energy make things 'more than just lumps of matter'?

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #88

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to William in post #87]
Humans and animals are much more than "lumps of matter." They both have "the same spirit," or breath of life within them. ("There is one outcome for humans and animals; they all have the same outcome. As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit....All are going to the same place. They all come from the dust, and they all are returning to the dust." (Ecclesiastes 3:19,20)

While alive, humans are special lumps of matter, as we have the ability to know our God and have a close relationship with Him. When we die, Jehovah remembers us and will some day provide the power to bring us back to life. (Acts 24:15) While animals are alive, they provide humans with companionship and affection, though there is no indication that they will be resurrected. They were given to us for our joy, and they can help us in times of sorrow or difficulty. More than just lumps of matter.

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #89

Post by Kylie »

onewithhim wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 2:16 pm
Kylie wrote: Thu Jun 30, 2022 5:17 am
onewithhim wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 11:09 am
Kylie wrote: Tue Jun 28, 2022 2:07 am
onewithhim wrote: Mon Jun 27, 2022 11:33 amNo, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.
Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down.

This isn't a mystery.
You said that it is the food that gives life. I made the point that if you have a dead person and you put food into their mouth, they are not going to receive life by that food. You don't seem to be understanding the points being brought out here. Life comes through God's Spirit which is the breath of life.
Please reread what I said.

I said, "Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down."

Putting food into the mouth is not the process which sustains life.

If you put food into your mouth and then nothing else, you will die just as quickly as someone who doesn't have any food at all.
Yes, that is why the food cannot be the source of life....it just keeps life going after the spirit or breath of life has been infused into that person. That is the argument YOU made.....that food is the source of the person being alive. So, no, the food KEEPS the person alive. You seem confused. Do you see my point?
Then I needed no spirit, since the cells that made up the fertilised egg at the moment of my conception were already alive BEFORE fertilisation took place. No spirit was thus given to me. And so on for my parents, and their parents, and so on ad nauseum.

In any case, you earlier used the analogy of a computer, in post 34. However, here is where the analogy breaks down. I can disconnect my computer from all electrical power, and it will shut down. According to your analogy, this is equivalent to withholding food and letting a person starve to death. But, and this is most important, I can, at any point, provide electrical to my computer and it will start right back up again. The same does not happen with a person.

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Re: Do animals have spirit?

Post #90

Post by William »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #88]

Is the Energy intelligent?

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