Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[tam]

[Replying to post 107 by onewithhim]

I know that spirit and soul are often described as two different things (and often ARE two different things).

I used it as an illustration only. Because I'm not sure why you think it is so bizarre for someone to say that we are spirit within this vessel. Our person, who we truly are, the heart of us, our emotions, our nature, our personality, everything that makes us, US.

This is contained with the spirit of us; not the flesh.

Do you think that we are just our bodies and nothing more than that?



I know at least part of the answer to the other question that you asked, but I don't think I am able discuss that at this time. Plus, it does not change anything as to the points made in this discussion re: smokers being told that they cannot belong to Christ until after they quit smoking.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You made statements as to the substance of your belief that humans were created originally as spirit persons and became physical only after they sinned.

I actually did not say that.

I think you inferred it from other things that I said.

Adam was made from the dust of the earth... but his body had no sin or death in it; and he was brought into the garden of Eden (the spiritual realm), meaning that he could move between both realms. The very thing we will be able to do with the new body - put on the flesh (with no sin or death in it) and put off the flesh.

Just as the angels can do. Just as Christ also did.


I will share something I posted elsewhere years ago (if that is permitted, if not I understand if it has to be taken down) on this matter (because it also clears up a point of contention as to what kind of a body Christ was resurrected in, and what body ascended to heaven):

I would like to share some understanding I received today, and I would like to share the understanding first and then the scientific understanding. As the faithful understand, we are spirit 'underneath' our flesh. I put underneath in quotations because that's not quite the right word. Spirit 'hidden' or 'covered' by flesh might be better. Because there isn't a particular spot inside of us that houses a spirit, like a cupboard. But as I now understand it, the flesh can be put off... and also put back on.

Many who have faith already know this. But what had me 'leaping for joy' earlier, was that science is beginning to back this as well. I mean, of course it MUST, because there is no conflict between science and God. Only a conflict in our (mis)understanding of either one of them. But I didn't realize or eXpect that it would begin to happen in my 'time'. In more 'scientific' terms though... it can be described as this:

Spirit (energy) can manifest itself as flesh/physical (matter).

Two things in science provide evidence for the truth of this. (not proof, yet, but evidence)

One: Energy and Matter. Einstein stated that matter an energy were different forms of the same thing. Energy can be matter and vice versa.

Two: The Standing Wave theory that a couple posters have pointed out. States that we are all energy at our most basic level, but that we manifest as physical, at least to our five senses. (I'm not sure I understood fully about this further point, but energy moves in waves... and standing energy manifests as matter.)


I find both of these theories to be very eXciting! Not because I need them to believe what Christ already stated, but because these provide evidence for matters in my faith! Both of these seem to work together (and of course they must). And if one could control this transformation between matter and energy (such as this 'standing wave'), then one could literally put on and put off the flesh.

In practical terms for believers, this takes care of one of the major sources of contention between various theological stands on the resurrected and risen Christ. I don't usually worry about theological matters, but my understanding became more clear when given this as an eXample:

Some say that Christ was resurrected in the flesh and ascended bodily into heaven.

Some say that Christ had to have been resurrected and ascended in spirit because flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. How could a physical being enter a spiritual place/realm? This was always my problem with a physical resurrection as well, although why go through the trouble of pointing out that you had flesh, if you were spirit?

But by this understanding, and these theories, BOTH are right. Christ was resurrected in the flesh (as he said and showed his disciples). He was raised up bodily, sure... but then entered a spiritual realm as a spirit because he could return to spirit. He could put off his flesh. (He can also put it back on, since He is going to return as He left.) Spirit beings (angels) can also travel between both realms, because they also can put on or put off the flesh. (or move from energy/spirt to matter/flesh to energy/spirit)

I know this science is very new (especially in terms of the age of mankind), and all of the implications still in the beginning stages. But these discoveries provide some of the 'how' of things I knew happened, but on faith in Christ and in His teachings. I'm sure what I understand is still just a drop in the bucket of things to come... but it would seem to me that those things, the evidence, is coming. It is very eXciting! Christ said to his disciples that He could not share many things of the spiritual with them because they could not yet bear it or understand it. He kept his teachings in simple terms according to the understanding they could handle at the time. Now as we're discovering more and more, the science is backing those first simple terms in greater detail.

Anyway, for believers, all that contention and arguing over physical resurrection or spiritual ascension for NOTHING. It can be both. It is both. And I have no doubt that there are other contentions that are not really in conflict as well... just our lack of understanding puts them in conflict.

http://xjwsforchrist.forumatic.com/view ... +the+flesh



My point was on track with the PURPOSE OF this thread: regardless of what kind of body you think Adam HAD, this flesh and blood, we will be given the NEW BODY, the white robe. So denying someone from coming to Christ because their 'flesh' is not clean enough serves NO PURPOSE except to make it harder for people to come to Christ who WISH to come to Christ.


It is Pharisaical and based on a misunderstanding of what makes us clean or unclean.

As Christ said, it is out of the HEART that comes the things that make a person unclean.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 107 by onewithhim]

I know that spirit and soul are often described as two different things (and often ARE two different things).

I used it as an illustration only. Because I'm not sure why you think it is so bizarre for someone to say that we are spirit within this vessel. Our person, who we truly are, the heart of us, our emotions, our nature, our personality, everything that makes us, US.

This is contained with the spirit of us; not the flesh.

Do you think that we are just our bodies and nothing more than that?



I know at least part of the answer to the other question that you asked, but I don't think I am able discuss that at this time. Plus, it does not change anything as to the points made in this discussion re: smokers being told that they cannot belong to Christ until after they quit smoking.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You made statements as to the substance of your belief that humans were created originally as spirit persons and became physical only after they sinned.

I actually did not say that.

Yes you did.

Your Post #90: "A spirit body---like the one that the angels have---is still a body. And, like the angels, can move in between the spirit and physical realms. This is what Adam and Eve could do before being given the long garment of skin (this body with sin and death in it)."

Your Post #93: "Adam and Eve had a body that had no sin and death in it and they were already in the place that WE will enter into (with the new body). We have the bodies RIGHT NOW that Adam and Eve had AFTER they ate from the tree."

Your Post # 106: "We have the body we inherited from Adam AFTER the fall."

[tam]

You paraphrased my words from post 90**, but the direct quote is this:



"A spirit body - like one that the angels have - is still a body. And like the angels, can move in between the spiritual and physical realms. This is what Adam and Eve could do before being barred from the spiritual realm (the garden of Eden) and given the long garment of skin (THIS body with sin and death in it)."




Post 93 and 106 - yes. We do have the body that Adam and Eve had been given AFTER the fall. Before the fall, there was no sin or death in their body (regardless of the kind); but we are in their image AFTER their fall.



I don't really have anything more to add to the past many posts, at least not at this time. Unless you wanted to respond to some of my questions in my posts. But no worries, either way.

My point with regard to the body that has sin and death (corruption) it... is that this body is not who we ARE (we are the person INSIDE); we are not judged according to how clean this body is; but rather by what is INSIDE of us (the heart) because that is what comes OUT Of us and can makes us unclean.


** I see that you tried to put that quote in correctly after I posted, from what you had originally paraphrased.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

You paraphrased my words from post 90**, but the direct quote is this:



"A spirit body - like one that the angels have - is still a body. And like the angels, can move in between the spiritual and physical realms. This is what Adam and Eve could do before being barred from the spiritual realm (the garden of Eden) and given the long garment of skin (THIS body with sin and death in it)."

I did paraphrase your words, but then, yes, I did quote you verbatim. My paraphrase meant the same thing. But I thought you would accuse me of making it up, so I quoted exactly. Same idea.

If you had answered the questions I asked, then I could go on and answer your questions....questions that are not as crucial to the discussion, though I will gladly address them. You asked if I believed that our fleshly being is all there is to a person (post #106). I would answer of course not. Obviously there is more to a person than their body, as anyone can see when they look at a lifeless physical body. I agree with the following, which you said in post #108: "Our person, who we truly are, the heart of us, our emotions, our nature, our personality, everything that makes us US...is contained with the spirit of us..."

That "spirit" is not an entirely different BODY, however. It is the life-force within us, and the force that causes a person to show a certain attitude or emotion---their impelling mental inclination.

Now will you answer my questions?

[tam]

You paraphrased my words from post 90**, but the direct quote is this:



"A spirit body - like one that the angels have - is still a body. And like the angels, can move in between the spiritual and physical realms. This is what Adam and Eve could do before being barred from the spiritual realm (the garden of Eden) and given the long garment of skin (THIS body with sin and death in it)."

No, I did not paraphrase your words. What I posted was exactly what you just posted above.

Okay, OWH. We both know that you originally wrote something else (Paraphrasing) and changed it to the above. Your original words are in my email, since I get notifications of posts in response to threads I have posted on.

I assume that anytime we edit something we have written, that the original words are what get sent in email. So anyone can know that we corrected something we wrote at first.

And anyone can see that the words you wrote are STILL different from the original quote. So you did not post exactly what I wrote and anyone could check the original to see this.


Its not a big deal. Just a misunderstanding. No worries.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

If you had answered the questions I asked,

I cannot answer questions that you ask, if those questions are based on a misunderstanding of what I posted. I am also not sure how to sort it all out. Too many misunderstood premises, I think. But perhaps we will be able to re-address this at some point in the future in a different discussion.



Until then, if there is anything that addresses the topic at hand (which my post about Adam and Eve and the spirit body was meant to do, although this was only a SMALL part of the argument), then I am happy to continue.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

If you had answered the questions I asked,

I cannot answer questions that you ask, if those questions are based on a misunderstanding of what I posted. I am also not sure how to sort it all out. Too many misunderstood premises, I think. But perhaps we will be able to re-address this at some point in the future in a different discussion.



Until then, if there is anything that addresses the topic at hand (which my post about Adam and Eve and the spirit body was meant to do, although this was only a SMALL part of the argument), then I am happy to continue.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I did not misunderstand what you posted, and I typed out what you said word-for-word. (SEE POST #111.) Please just answer the questions. But alas....you do not know how to answer my simple, direct questions....am I right? There is no "misunderstanding." I showed you above why I got the idea that you said that Adam and Eve were created as SPIRITS and became physical only after the Fall. You can see that I did not misunderstand (POST #111).

It would be out of sheer kindness for you to further explain your beliefs by answering my two questions. Peter said that we should always be ready to give an answer as to what we believe, "with gentleness and reverence." (I Peter 3:15, NASB)

[tam]

If you had answered the questions I asked,

I cannot answer questions that you ask, if those questions are based on a misunderstanding of what I posted. I am also not sure how to sort it all out. Too many misunderstood premises, I think. But perhaps we will be able to re-address this at some point in the future in a different discussion.



Until then, if there is anything that addresses the topic at hand (which my post about Adam and Eve and the spirit body was meant to do, although this was only a SMALL part of the argument), then I am happy to continue.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

I did not misunderstand what you posted, and I typed out what you said word-for-word. (SEE POST #111.) Please just answer the questions. But alas....you do not know how to answer my simple, direct questions....am I right? There is no "misunderstanding." I showed you above why I got the idea that you said that Adam and Eve were created as SPIRITS and became physical only after the Fall. You can see that I did not misunderstand (POST #111).

It would be out of sheer kindness for you to further explain your beliefs by answering my two questions. Peter said that we should always be ready to give an answer as to what we believe, "with gentleness and reverence." (I Peter 3:15, NASB)

No, you do not understand. Because I also said earlier that there is a misunderstanding on what exactly a 'spirit body' is. Not that it is an ethereal, floatie thing.


Now if you want to know why the seed (those who belong to Christ, whom God foreknew before they were ever born; including those through whom the SEED - Christ - would come) would be put into physical bodies:

To hide them from their enemies in the spiritual realm: such as the Adversary and those that follow him who wish to destroy us. We are revealed when we take a stand for Christ; at which time we are 'targeted'. But we are given the opportunity to come to Him first. Also to protect the line through which Christ would come; so that HE - the SEED - was protected.


In addition to that... do you think that God did not know that Adam and Eve were going to sin? Of course He knew. He made allowance for their decision before they ever made their decision.

In addition to that... the spiritual realm and the physical realm were not cut off from one another BEFORE Adam sinned and granted death entrance into the EARTH (which he had been given to rule over). After sin and death entered Adam and the world, there HAD to be a separation BECAUSE death cannot enter the spiritual realm (heaven). Or there would be no safe place for us to RETURN TO.

In addition to that... since we were cast out... the physical realm also gives man (who is very lacking in faith, and prefers to walk by sight) PHYSICAL examples of SPIRITUAL truths.


All to help us understand and return to what we had at first. Which was BOTH: access to BOTH the spiritual and the physical realms. Is not THIS realm (the physical realm) awesome - or at least that it would be awesome without the sin and death in it? Obviously the spiritual realm is even greater, because this is where God IS, and that love, the spiritual unions, amazing.


But it was both when Adam and Eve started out... and it will be both when Paradise is restored. AS it was at the start.



Is that enough? There may be more that I have not yet been given, but these are some of the things I have been given to understand, to date.


Anyone who is thirsting, anyone who is seeking, may you be given ears to hear as the Spirit (Christ) and the Bride say, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of life!

(which water is holy spirit, poured out by my Lord to whomever He wishes, given to Him without end from His Father)


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

You did not answer my questions.

I will now assume that you cannot explain your "beliefs," and I will not keep trying to get you to explain them. It is an exercise in futility for anyone sincerely wanting to know from you (1) why God did not create Adam and Eve to live with the angels who are spirit beings (just like you say Adam and Eve were) but instead placed them on a physical Earth, and (2) how it can be said that though Adam was a spirit being when he was first created, he was "made from the dust of the ground." The dust of the ground is physical.




That's fine.....you're off the hook. May others not be fooled into thinking you know what you're talking about.