Paradise on Earth

[onewithhim]

When I learned that the Bible speaks of a restored Garden of Eden and the restoration of mankind to the perfection and endless life that Adam forfeited, I was thrilled. Who doesn't want to keep living on this beautiful earth, with our loved ones, and being able to do all the things we love to do---endlessly?

If God said to you today, "When do you want to die?" would you say "now!!"? I don't think very many people would say that.

We CAN live forever here on Earth. The Bible tells us that we can.

Matthew 5:5
Psalm 37:9-11,29

[FaithWillDo]

Dear JehovahsWitness,

You said:
Revelation 18 in symbolic terms speaks of the destruction of false religion ( "Baylon the Great").. (I assume this was your quote).

The book of Revelation is speaking in "symbolic terms" but more precisely, the book (like all of scripture) uses physical terms which have spiritual meanings. This is Christ's spiritual language. Here is an example of His spiritual language using the word "SWORD":

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Does Christ really mean that if you use a sword to kill others, then you must likewise be killed with a sword? Literally, that is what He is saying. So if we are to understand it literally, then that statement can easily be proven to be false. There are countless examples of people who have used violence to kill others but then do not die from that same type of violence - it almost goes without saying. So is Christ mistaken or is His message something else?

Since His “words are spirit”, His message must be spiritually understood. Christ’s spiritual message is quite different from what He is literally saying.

In Matt 26:52, Christ is using a spiritual “symbol” to give us His spiritual message. Here Christ uses the symbol of a Sword. To understand what that symbol means, we must look at how it is used elsewhere in scripture – we must compare spiritual with spiritual.

Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any two edged sword...

Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp two-edged sword...

From this example, it is easy to understand that a Sword represents the Word of God. So Christ’s hidden spiritual point He is making in Matt 26:52 is that all who live (those being “born again”) by the Word of God, must perish (death of the carnal nature) by the Word of God.

Water baptism is another symbol which sends the same spiritual message as Matt 26:52. When an individual is baptized in water, the immersion represents the death of their carnal nature (Old Man). The ascension out of the water represents their new birth in Christ in the Kingdom of Heaven. This great work of conversion (salvation) is accomplished by the Word of God (Sword/Christ).

Your comments on the meaning of Rev 18 is close but you are applying it "outwardly" (carnal understanding) instead of "inwardly" (spiritual understanding). Mystery Babylon the Great is the religious component of mankind's carnal nature. It is what makes mankind prefer the "old wine" (works) over the "new wine" (faith). It is "within" each of us and must be destroyed. When a person looks at the world, Mystery Babylon is manifested in all the false religions of the world, including the 2000 different church denominations/sects of Christianity. But the cause of that manifestation is "within" mankind. It is spiritual. The destruction of Mystery Babylon presented in ch. 18/19 is a teaching on the destruction of this religious component of our carnal nature. Mystery Babylon is what produces the "false prophet/man of sin". This destruction happens at a believer's moment of conversion.

You said:
"The marriage of the lamb " is when all the 144, 000 members of Gods heavenly government finally get to heaven.

The "marriage of the Lamb" happens at the moment of conversion when each chosen believer receives the Latter Rain. It is a reoccurring event in the lives of all of Christ's Elect since the Apostles were converted in the upper room on the Day of Pentecost.

In Rev. ch. 7, it teaches on two groups of people which make up 100% of mankind.

In the first half of the chapter, it presents the Elect who are the first group to saved. They are the First Fruits of the harvest and are saved in throughout this present age. They are represented by the symbol "144,000". And like all spiritual symbols, it carries it's own meaning which is different from "what man's wisdom teaches". The number 144,000 is not a literal number. It should be understood as 12 x 12,000. The number 12 spiritually represents the Kingdom of Heaven. The number 12,000 (12 x 1000) represents the complete destruction of their carnal nature which occurred by a spiritual process (10x10x10). When the two numbers (12 and 12,000) are multiplied, it creates the new spiritual symbol of 144,000. This new symbol represents of all of Christ's First Fruits who are saved in this age.

In the second half of the chapter, it presents a group to large to count. They have come out of Great Tribulation (the conversion process). The are the remaining portion of mankind who are saved at the end of the final age.

Once both groups are in the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ's reign and the ages will end because Christ's work of creating new children for God the Father will be completed.

Also, you said "get to heaven". Heaven is a spiritual symbol and is not a place/location. We are in "heaven" when we are converted. It is a spiritual state of being.

You said:
Under Christs direction these (144,000) will then lead the angels to destroy Satan's system and usher obedient humans into a new world (not a new literal planet they will still be living on this our planet earth) but a new human society where those on this earth will live with no more pain or suffering.

Again, your understanding is carnal and outward. Our salvation is spiritual and inward. Your carnal paradigm you understand scripture with must be destroyed and replaced with a new paradigm if you are going to understand the truth of God's Word. You are still receiving your truth from the sun and the moon (truth of this carnal world).

Christ has one primary mission in this creation and nearly everything He teaches in scripture is concerned with this mission. The mission is to save mankind and to create new children of God. In the final age, Christ's purpose for creating the First Fruits will be realized. That purpose is to use them in helping save the rest of mankind. Everything Christ does is geared toward that purpose. He is driven by His love for us.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Again, we are being made into spiritual children of God and after Christ's reign and the ages end, so will end the need for the physical creation. At that point, mankind will dwell with God in the spiritual realm. The inheritance of the earth the Elect receive only occurs in the final age. The "earth" is a spiritual term which represents carnal mankind. The Elect receive the blessing of reigning with Christ over the earth (carnal mankind) in the final age. Once the "earth" is totally destroyed (all mankind is converted), Christ will deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and we will exist in the spiritual realm going into eternity.

Last comment: all mankind will become "obedient" because of the spiritual work of Christ within us. Without His work, no man can be obedient. It is only after Christ converts us that we are obedient. Mankind's salvation is spiritual and is 100% the work of Christ. Even our confession of faith is the work of Christ. He causes it to happen and if He can cause it to happen in His First Fruits, He will also cause it to happen in 100% of mankind.

Christ truly is the Savior of the World and His work of accomplishing this mission will give glory to the Father:

Phi 2:10-11 That at the name of Jesus every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Joe

[JehovahsWitness]

In Rev. ch. 7, it teaches on two groups of people which make up 100% of mankind.

Yes, there are two groups of worshippers mentioned in Revelation 7, the first, those who will rule with Christ as part of his heavenly government . The second the subjects of that government, these subjects are the meek that shall inherit the earth.



JW

[FaithWillDo]

Dear JehovahsWitness,

You said:
Yes, there are two groups of worshippers mentioned in Revelation 7, the first, those who will rule with Christ as part of his heavenly government . The second the subjects of that government, these subjects are the meek that shall inherit the earth.


Let me ask you a question. The "subjects" of the "heavenly government" who inherit the earth and will live in physical bodies forever, are they saved? If they are living forever, they must be saved.

And since they are saved, why does Christ continue to "rule" over them?

Do you understand what the reign of Christ is like? It is not like mankind's reign.

Here is what Christ said:

Mat 20:25-28 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Here Christ explains what it means to reign in the Kingdom of Heaven. To reign, we become servants and ministers to those who need help. The help Christ gives those in need is to convert them, judge them, and teach them.

Since the people who "inherit the earth" are saved, then they do not need a heavenly government to reign over them nor would they ever be considered "subjects" under Christ's reign. Christ and the First Fruits who reign in the final age over the lost are the servants of the lost and will minister to them and save them. A saved person has no need to be under the reign of Christ.

When Christ has saved all mankind at the end of the final age, His "reign" will come to an end because there are no longer any persons who need to be "minister" to or to be saved.

1 Cor 15:20-28 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Your beliefs have many, many conflicts with scripture when they are held up to the light of Truth. Does this not concern you? Do you have a "love for the truth" above all things in this world?

Let me ask a few more questions on the subject of understanding God's Word.

In your opinion, why is God's Word so difficult to understand correctly?

Why do you believe there on nearly 2000 different denominations/sects of Christianity who all teach their own versions of the truth (like the JW's do) when scripture clearly says there is only one truth?

Since understanding the truth is necessary to be saved, how come scripture says that mankind cannot understand the Word of God.

Rom 3:10-11 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Since this verse above is true, how can any man ever seek God and understand His truth? The truth is He can't and never will.

But there is a way to find the truth. That way is for Christ to come to each of us and baptize us with His Spirit so that we can be "born again" as a child of God. We must be converted. Carnally minded mankind will NEVER understand the truth of God. Only a child of God is able to understand the truth. And because of the grace of God, Christ has promised to come to each of us at the appointed time, do His work within us (convert us) and teach us His truth:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

No person can call Jesus "Lord" unless Christ comes to them and gives them at least an earnest amount of the Holy Spirit.

1 Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When a person makes a confession of faith, they do not do it from their own "free will" which they have from birth. They will only make that confession of faith after Christ does His work within them. Their confession of faith is the evidence of Christ's work within them.

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Ecc 3:1 To everything there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven.

As I have said, Christ is only saving those who have been chosen from the foundation of the world in this present age. They are the First Fruits and the heirs of the promise. Then in the final age, the heirs will receive their inheritance of "life" during the ages and reigning with Christ over the earth (carnal mankind). Once all mankind is saved, the ages and Christ's reign will come to an end. This understanding is 100% consistent with the teachings of scripture.

Will you answer my specific questions on understanding God's Word?
Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1968]

Dear onewithhim,

You said:
Any even surface reading of my posts will reveal that I do not consider Jesus still in the flesh. He is a powerful spirit person in heaven at his Father's right hand. "He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:15,16)


Much of what I present to you is in Christ's spiritual language which you are not understanding. When I say that you are seeing Christ in the flesh, I mean that your understanding of God's Word (Christ) is carnal (of this world) and not spiritual (Christ's spiritual language). The teachings of Christ in scripture are given to us in His spiritual language:

I beg to differ. Let all those looking on read both of our posts and decide who seems to be understanding spiritual things. I believe that it is YOU who are not understanding. And you haven't answered some of my questions. I don't believe that you answered my question "why would God make any physical people when he wants them to eventually become spirits; why wouldn't he have made everyone spirits to begin with?"

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #1968]

Dear onewithhim,

You said:
Any even surface reading of my posts will reveal that I do not consider Jesus still in the flesh. He is a powerful spirit person in heaven at his Father's right hand. "He is the King of those who rule as kings and Lord of those who rule as lords, the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:15,16)


Much of what I present to you is in Christ's spiritual language which you are not understanding. When I say that you are seeing Christ in the flesh, I mean that your understanding of God's Word (Christ) is carnal (of this world) and not spiritual (Christ's spiritual language). The teachings of Christ in scripture are given to us in His spiritual language:

I beg to differ. Let all those looking on read both of our posts and decide who seems to be understanding spiritual things. I believe that it is YOU who are not understanding. And you haven't answered some of my questions. I don't believe that you answered my question "why would God make any physical people when he wants them to eventually become spirits; why wouldn't he have made everyone spirits to begin with?"

Dear onewithhim,
I have answered your questions, you just won't accept those answers or scriptures. Also, I just answered your question above in the "Jesus is not God" thread.
Joe

[JehovahsWitness]

Dear JehovahsWitness,
... why does Christ continue to "rule" over them?

Christ and the 144, 000 rule over the survivors of Harmegeddon (and the resurrected humans) to apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice, bringing them back to human perfection as originally purposed in Eden. (After that he will hand the Kingdom over to his Father)


(Maybe I'll address the other questions if you raise them in a more appropriate thread. Here I'm only dealing with questions related to the paradise earth)

[2ndpillar2]

Dear JehovahsWitness,
... why does Christ continue to "rule" over them?

Christ and the 144, 000 rule over the survivors of Harmegeddon (and the resurrected humans) to apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice, bringing them back to human perfection as originally purposed in Eden. (After that he will hand the Kingdom over to his Father)


(Maybe I'll address the other questions if you raise them in a more appropriate thread. Here I'm only dealing with questions related to the paradise earth)

If humans reach perfection, why do the nations need the leaves of the tree of life for healing (Revelation 22:2), and why do the nations keep their own gods (Micah 4:3-5)

…3Then He will judge between many peoples and arbitrate for strong nations far and wide. Then they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will no longer take up the sword against nation, nor will they train anymore for war. 4And each man will sit under his own vine and under his own fig tree, with no one to frighten him. For the mouth of the LORD of Hosts has spoken. 5Though each of the peoples may walk in the name of his god, yet we will walk in the name of the LORD our God forever and ever.…

[FaithWillDo]

Dear JehovahsWitness,
... why does Christ continue to "rule" over them?

Christ and the 144, 000 rule over the survivors of Harmegeddon (and the resurrected humans) to apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice, bringing them back to human perfection as originally purposed in Eden. (After that he will hand the Kingdom over to his Father)


(Maybe I'll address the other questions if you raise them in a more appropriate thread. Here I'm only dealing with questions related to the paradise earth)

Dear JehovahsWitness,
Human perfection??? So if Adam and Eve were perfect, why did they sin? What will stop anyone, who you believe is returned to this state of "human perfection", from sinning again? What is going to stop them from making the same bad choices? Is Christ going to have to keep dying on the cross over and over again because mankind, even being in your "human perfection" state, cannot stop making a "free will" decision to sin?

None of what you belief makes any sense nor is any of it presented in scripture. Why do you believe it???

Joe

[JehovahsWitness]

Dear JehovahsWitness,
... why does Christ continue to "rule" over them?

Christ and the 144, 000 rule over the survivors of Harmegeddon (and the resurrected humans) to apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice, bringing them back to human perfection as originally purposed in Eden. (After that he will hand the Kingdom over to his Father)

If humans reach perfection, why do the nations need the leaves of the tree of life for healing (Revelation 22:2).

REVELALATION 22

And he showed me a river of water of life, clear as crystal, flowing out from the throne of God and of the Lamb+ 2 down the middle of its main street. On both sides of the river were trees of life producing 12 crops of fruit, yielding their fruit each month. And the leaves of the trees were for the healing of the nations.

Humans will reach perfection after they are healed. The "nations " that benefit from the healing at Revelation 22 are the survivors of the Great tribulation (plus the ressurected humans) who will be lead back to perfection by Christ and the 144,000 during their 1000 year rule (see Rev 7:9). The trees picture God's provision for giving eternal life to obedient mankind, including the ransom. They will be "healed" of their sin by the full application of the benefits of that ransom.

[2ndpillar2]

Dear JehovahsWitness,
... why does Christ continue to "rule" over them?

Christ and the 144, 000 rule over the survivors of Harmegeddon (and the resurrected humans) to apply the benefits of his ransom sacrifice, bringing them back to human perfection as originally purposed in Eden. (After that he will hand the Kingdom over to his Father)


(Maybe I'll address the other questions if you raise them in a more appropriate thread. Here I'm only dealing with questions related to the paradise earth)

Dear JehovahsWitness,
Human perfection??? So if Adam and Eve were perfect, why did they sin? What will stop anyone, who you believe is returned to this state of "human perfection", from sinning again? What is going to stop them from making the same bad choices? Is Christ going to have to keep dying on the cross over and over again because mankind, even being in your "human perfection" state, cannot stop making a "free will" decision to sin?

None of what you belief makes any sense nor is any of it presented in scripture. Why do you believe it???

Joe

Well apparently, the nations/gentiles will make bad choices and a rod of iron (Revelation 19:15) with judgment will be set upon them (Zechariah 14:16-19). The nations will continue to worship their own gods (Micah 4:3-5) and the devil/Satan will be released after 1000 years, and gather the nations together to surround the righteous, and be dealt with by the means of fire from heaven (Revelation 20:7-9) The JWs think they are the 144,000 without a lie on their lips and are apparently "celibates" (Revelation 14:4), which is probably a news flash to their wives and children. Keep in mind that their religion apparently came together in the 1880s, and their world view was somewhat limited to the times, and they were simply unable to adjust to reality when it overtook them. How they got 8 million plus followers is an unanswered question, plus the question of where do the excess over the 144,000 go. But then again, how did their mother Christian churches obtain around 2 billion followers (Revelation 13:14)?