Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?

[polonius]

In Catholic dogma, when did the Holy Spirit become a "person" of the Trinity such as the Father and Son?

[ttruscott]

bjs posted:

The overwhelming majority of those who study the Christian scriptures (even if they don’t agree that its claims are true) say that the scriptures clearly teach the divinity of Christ and the Spirit.

QUESTION: What scripture supports this conclusion?

1.
Luke 22:69 "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." At first glance this verse looks innocuous but when we see that it is a reference to Daniel 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might SERVE Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14) Serve him: In Biblical Chaldee this word is only used of rendering Divine service or worship. The "Son of man" is therefore here spoken of as God.

In context: Luke 22 Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68 and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.� 70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?� He replied, “You say that I am.� Meaning: (NASB) "And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."" " the Son of God" which means not the first created but "the very essence of GOD" as proven by their reaction to condemn Him for blasphemy; 71 Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.� There is no blasphemy in claiming to be the first created son.

2.
John 8:58 “Truly, truly, I tell you,� Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!� 59 At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and slipped away from the temple area. They knew what He meant and they knew that if He was not divine that He was speaking blasphemy, a sin worthy of death. Their reaction proves the meaning of His words though they do not sound so bad to the modern ear.

3.
John 10:25 Jesus answered,... 30 I and the Father are one.� This claim to deity was obvious to His audience though it may not mean the same thing to the modern mind but their reaction to what He said proves all: 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?� 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,� they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.�

4. The Holy Spirit is a person:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" Mt 28:19

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all" 2 Cor 13:14

Although the verse gives us no information of 4th century Trinitarian doctrine of "three in one" etc, it most certainly proves the Holy Spirit is a person. To suggest we are to be baptized in the name of (or by the authority of) the Father, the Son and electricity, assaults our common sense. Three persons are clearly implied in this verse. With 2 Cor 13:14, like Mt 28:19, we have a three part combination verse that demands grace, love and fellowship be equally ascribed to three corresponding persons.

5. The Holy Spirit simply must be a person and is much more than God's power or active force:

A. The Holy Spirit is outright said to have a mind which energy does not.
Rom 8:27 He has a mind. (The Father who searches the heart of man knows the mind of the Holy Spirit who intercedes.)

B. The Holy Spirit experience emotions, slights and injuries which energy does not.
Mt 12:31 "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit " (blaspheme energy?)
Heb 10:29 "and have insulted the Spirit" (insult energy?)
Acts 5:3 "You have lied unto the Holy Spirit " (lie to energy?)
Rom 15:30 "I urge you by the love of the Holy Spirit " (love energy?)
Eph 4:30 (Isa 63:10) "and do not grieve the Holy Spirit" (grieve energy?)

C. The Holy Spirit evaluates, reasons and chooses with intelligent freewill which energy cannot do.
John 16:13 "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak"
Acts 15:28 "it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit"
1 Cor 2:11 "He knows God's thoughts.
Jn 16:13 "He will guide you"
Acts 13:1-4 "being sent out by the Holy Spirit"
Acts 16:6 "forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia"
Acts 11:12 "He told Peter to go with Cornelius' men.
Acts 8:39 "He "caught Phillip away."
Matt 4:1; 1:12; Luke 4:11 He led Jesus into the wilderness.
Acts 20:28 The Holy Spirit has made [appointed] you overseers."

D. The Holy Spirit originates intelligent thought and speaks which energy cannot do.
Acts 13:2 "the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them"
2 Pet 1:21 He guided men to write Scripture and speak from God. The words of the Bible itself were chosen by the Holy Spirit. Energy is not intelligent.
Heb 9:8 "the Holy Spirit is indicating this."
Heb 10:15-17 (Jer. 31:33-34) "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them""
Heb 3:7-11 (Ps. 95:7-11) Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you hear His voice
Mark 13:11; 10:19-20 "it is not you who speak, but the Holy spirit"
Acts 4:25 He spoke "by the mouth of David."
Jn 16:13 "Whatever He hears He will speak" He will disclose to the apostles "things to come."
Jn 16:14 "He shall glorify me"
Rom 8:14 "being led by the Spirit of God"
Rev 2:7,11,7,29; 3:6,13,22 "... let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Luke 2:26 "He revealed to Simeon he would see the Christ.
1 Cor 2:10 "for the Spirit searches the mind of God" Is the Holy Spirit merely a web crawler of information... a massive data base?
Eph 3:5 "He reveals the mystery of Christ."
1 Pet 1:11 "Spirit of Christ" in the prophets "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."
1 Cor 2:13 "words taught by the Spirit"
1 Ti 4:1 "The Spirit explicitly says"
Acts 2:4 He gave the Apostles "utterance."

6. The Holy Spirit is a divine person, like the Father

A. The Holy Spirit is outright Called God:
Acts 5:3-4 "You have lied unto the Holy Spirit ... you have lied to God"
Mt 12:28; Lk 11:20 "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God ... finger of God"
2 Cor. 3:17-18 "The Lord is the Spirit"

B. The Holy Spirit shares Qualities that only God possesses:

Eternal like the Father: Heb 9:14
Omnipresent like the Father: Ps 139:7
Omniscient like the Father: 1 Cor 2:10-11

For starters... I don't know if this is too much or too little but it is enough for me right now.

[onewithhim]

The Church officially accepted Jesus as equally God in 325 A.D.

Many disagreed with the Emperor-enforced decision, but the minority Trinitarians eventually won out with the power of the Roman Emperor Constantine (who was later baptized as a non-Trinitarian) and Emperor Theodosius who later enforced the 381 Council.

Tigger, your information is always accurate, so I am undoubtedly wrong about this, but I have always understood Constantine to never have been baptized. I read that he was a pagan to the end.

[onewithhim]

You are correct that the divinity of Christ became an official teaching in 325 at the Council of Nicea. (The Pope did not attend this council, but Constantine, ehe Emperor did.)

Reviewing a short history of the claimed divinity of Christ:

1. First of all, there in nothing in the Old Testament saying that the "messiah" was divine.

2. After Jesus, death, according to the Acts of the Apostles, the Christian-Jerusalem community remained an observant Jewish sect, one of a number of sects within Judaism. It was known as "The Way" of "the Nazarenes."

3. It most important law continued to be the Jewish Shema "Hear O Isreal. The Lord is One."

4. The Gospels of Mark (c. 70 AD) and Matthew and Luke (c. 80 AD). Do not claim divinity for Jesus (although some try to read that into them.

5. It is unclear how the change came about, but around 85 AD, the belief that Jesus too was divine developed. This, of course, contradicted the scriptures and Jewish beliefs.

.

What do we mean by "divine"? Do we mean that a divine individual is God?

[tigger2]

The Church officially accepted Jesus as equally God in 325 A.D.

Many disagreed with the Emperor-enforced decision, but the minority Trinitarians eventually won out with the power of the Roman Emperor Constantine (who was later baptized as a non-Trinitarian) and Emperor Theodosius who later enforced the 381 Council.

Tigger, your information is always accurate, so I am undoubtedly wrong about this, but I have always understood Constantine to never have been baptized. I read that he was a pagan to the end.

Constantine asked for baptism when he was near death. He chose an Arian Bishop to baptize him, and the Roman Church remained Arian for a number of years thereafter.

[tigger2]

The Church officially accepted Jesus as equally God in 325 A.D.

Many disagreed with the Emperor-enforced decision, but the minority Trinitarians eventually won out with the power of the Roman Emperor Constantine (who was later baptized as a non-Trinitarian) and Emperor Theodosius who later enforced the 381 Council.

Tigger, your information is always accurate, so I am undoubtedly wrong about this, but I have always understood Constantine to never have been baptized. I read that he was a pagan to the end.

Constantine asked to be baptized when he realized he was dying. He chose an Arian Bishop (Eusebius of Nicomedia) to baptize him. The Roman Church remained Arian for some time thereafter.

http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... rt-5.html

[Claire Evans]

I believe it was in 381 A.D. at The First Council of Constantinople. Although it was officially accepted at this time, many refused to accept it.

RESPONSE: Excellent! As best I can tell, you are absolutely correct.

Follow-on question, when was Jesus first claimed to be divine himself in addition to being the Messiah? What effect did this change have on the early Christians?

Actually Jesus Himself said He was divine.

John 8:56–59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.�

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,� they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!�

58 “Very truly I tell you,� Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!� 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

RESPONSE: Jewish Christians, contrary to their Jewish orthodoxy at the time, came to believe Jesus was divine in about 85 AD. What followed was the Jewish 18 Benedictions, the 12th of which labeled the Christians as apostates ("minim"). They were expelled from Jewish synagogues. John's gospel written about 95 AD reports this.

Just because they didn't believe Jesus wasn't divine until 85 AD, doesn't mean Jesus wasn't divine. They were set in their ways when it came to the Messianic belief so they just believed Jesus was the Messiah. Yet He was not. And so Paul had to come into the picture.

Only his Gospel has the 7 "I am.." saying which do not occur in any of the scripture written earlier. He also reports that only Thomas referred to Jesus
as 'My God." Of course, this was 65 years after the fact.

Mark doesn't include the nativity story but that doesn't negate the virgin birth. Each gospel was written for a specific audience. John happened to write the mystical aspects of Jesus.

And the other gospels do allude to Jesus being God.

Luke 8:39 (NASB)

"Return to your house and describe what great things God has done for you." So he went away, proclaiming throughout the whole city what great things Jesus had done for him

Luke says that Jesus is God incarnate:

"Blessed be the Lord God of Israel, For He has visited us and accomplished redemption for His people,

If you look up Acts you will find that Peter is still referring to Jesus as a man (through whom God (not by Jesus' power) worked signs. And God raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus did not "rise" by his own power.


When you read scripture read with attention to detail.

Jesus was a man. God came to earth as a human to redeem mankind. He was half man/half God.

Your dilemma is explained by the Trinity. God has different facets. One has the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This was manifested on earth but in heaven they are one and the same.

[polonius]

Actually Jesus Himself said He was divine.



John 8:56–59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.�

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,� they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!�

58 “Very truly I tell you,� Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!� 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

IMPORTANT DISTINCTION: The writer we call John wrote what he CLAIMED Jesus said. This was 65 years after the event. If these claims have no substantiation in Matthew, Mark, or Luke (even though they were writing long after the fact also), John's story can be disregarded as just a "story."

Other than John, where else do you find "I am" sayings?

And doesn't John disagree with the earlier evangelists and have Jesus crucified on the Day of Preparation rather than the Passover?

What does that tell us about facts and "Jesus sayings" not contained in earlier writings?

[onewithhim]

Actually Jesus Himself said He was divine.



John 8:56–59

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.�

57 “You are not yet fifty years old,� they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!�

58 “Very truly I tell you,� Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!� 59 At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.

IMPORTANT DISTINCTION: The writer we call John wrote what he CLAIMED Jesus said. This was 65 years after the event. If these claims have no substantiation in Matthew, Mark, or Luke (even though they were writing long after the fact also), John's story can be disregarded as just a "story."

Other than John, where else do you find "I am" sayings?

And doesn't John disagree with the earlier evangelists and have Jesus crucified on the Day of Preparation rather than the Passover?

What does that tell us about facts and "Jesus sayings" not contained in earlier writings?

There are no I AM "sayings" in John or anywhere else. Jesus never inferred that he was God Almighty. He didn't really refer his listeners back to Exodus 3:14. He was NOT saying that he was God. It's easy to understand this if we do just a little research. "Ego eimi" is one of the most-used phrases throughout the Bible, and other people say it besides Jesus. Just curious....what are the "I Am sayings"? I know about the spurious John 8:58, which I commented on, but what are the other supposed "I Am" sayings?


The correct rendering of John 8:58 is linked below, and then a discussion of it:

http://robertangle.com/ruminations/2012 ... -say-i-am/

http://robertangle.com/ruminations/2012 ... ighty-god/

[evilsorcerer1]

God and only God is a spirit and all his creation is physical matter and can only be that.

[Checkpoint]

God and only God is a spirit and all his creation is physical matter and can only be that.

How is that relevant to this thread?

The Holy Spirit is not a creation of God.