For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

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2timothy316
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For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #1

Post by 2timothy316 »

MissKate13 wrote: Tue Feb 21, 2023 9:59 am IMHO, Father, Son and Holy Spirit have human characteristics: emotions, will, etc. We are created in the image of God. Perhaps saying three persons in one God helps people to understand better. I have no idea. All I know is that there is ONE GOD, and He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
MissKate13 wrote: Mon Feb 20, 2023 5:49 pm Jesus is the Father.
The Encyclopedia Britannica says: Trinity, in Christian doctrine, the unity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three persons in one Godhead.
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Trinity-Christianity

So which is it? Is Jesus the Father and HS as one person? Or is it the more accepted dogma, three persons are one?

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #21

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:39 pm
Eloi wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:27 pm
historia wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:24 pm
Eloi wrote: Thu Feb 23, 2023 10:14 pm
What about other historical views of the trinity? There are thousands of called Christian churches in this moment ... and I am sure there are a lot of diferent views of the trinity among them that have been around for centuries.
Such as?
I was mentioning some point of views, others than the "mistery theory" in my last post.
I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

You asked me about "other historical views of the trinity." What historical views are you referring to?
Well, I concede you that. I do not really know how to express myself ... I am not an expert on the diferent points of view about the trinity, but I can asure that on finding a lot of those while preaching the good news of the Kingdom of God, yes ... almost every time I talk with a trinitarian, there is something diferent about that doctrine that I never heard before.

Since that doctrine can not be learned out of the Bible, Do you think all trinitarians most study that belief in a special school?

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #22

Post by onewithhim »

tam wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:23 pm Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:48 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

It seems that those that tout the trinity doctrine only care when Jehovah's Witnesses 'get it wrong'. Yet, here is a trinity believer that has got it wrong by most other trinity believer standards and they are fine with it apparently with their lack presence in this thread. The message seems to be, believe as you wish about the trinity, you don't have to be right, just as long as you believe in some sort of mysterious trinity.

As for us Jehovah's Witnesses, it sure feels good to be unified in belief and bathe in the light of Jehovah and not stumbling around.
Just so you know, there are other people and/or groups out there who believe that "Jesus is Michael". You (all) teach different details about this doctrine though, therefore, the "Jesus is Michael" believers aren't any more unified than "trinity believers" are unified.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that. What evidence do you have that "all teach different details" about the "doctrine."? Anyway, the Michael believers don't claim to be unified. If they exist, as you say, they would all be of different opinions. You're right, that group would not be unified, as the trinity believers are not as well. Jehovah's Witnesses are of the same mind on that doctrine.

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #23

Post by Eloi »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:24 am (...)
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that. What evidence do you have that "all teach different details" about the "doctrine."? Anyway, the Michael believers don't claim to be unified. If they exist, as you say, they would all be of different opinions. You're right, that group would not be unified, as the trinity believers are not as well. Jehovah's Witnesses are of the same mind on that doctrine.
It doesn't make any sense at all to compare the trinity doctrine with the teaching that Michael is Jesus. It is true that there are others, individuals or groups (like adventism) who teach that Michael is Jesus, but there is not any diference on that teaching no matter who is the one who believe on it, all say the same and only thing related to that: the Archangel Michael is Jesus and that's it.

At the contrary, we can find selfcalled trinitarians who say Jehovah is Jesus and others who say Jehovah is not Jesus, or some who say the Father and Jesus are co-equal, and others who say there is subordination among them, some say that when Jesus was a human he was not God and others say he was God even when human, some say prehuman-Jesus was just a non personal internal part of God and became personal only when he was born as human, and others say he was an independent person even before becoming human, etc.

It is obvious that comparing both doctrines is ridiculous, but that forumer is always trying to change topic to accuse JWs of something ... You can see on his posts that in a topic about the trinity he talks about the expulsion, about eating the emblems in the Commemoration, about Michael, etc ... because what he is looking for is for chances to fight against JWs no matter how. He even has an ex-JWs website (apostate) as his contact info in his profile, but he is feigning interest in other topics than showing his hatred against us. If his interest on those diferent topics were genuine, he would be opening threads about each of them, but he does not.

Matt. 12:33 “Either YOU people make the tree fine and its fruit fine or make the tree rotten and its fruit rotten; for by its fruit the tree is known. 34 Offspring of vipers, how can YOU speak good things, when YOU are wicked? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. 35 The good man out of his good treasure sends out good things, whereas the wicked man out of his wicked treasure sends out wicked things. 36 I tell YOU that every unprofitable saying that men speak, they will render an account concerning it on Judgment Day; 37 for by your words you will be declared righteous, and by your words you will be condemned.”

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #24

Post by tam »

Peace to you,
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:24 am
tam wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 1:23 pm Peace to you,
2timothy316 wrote: Wed Feb 22, 2023 8:48 am [Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #2]

It seems that those that tout the trinity doctrine only care when Jehovah's Witnesses 'get it wrong'. Yet, here is a trinity believer that has got it wrong by most other trinity believer standards and they are fine with it apparently with their lack presence in this thread. The message seems to be, believe as you wish about the trinity, you don't have to be right, just as long as you believe in some sort of mysterious trinity.

As for us Jehovah's Witnesses, it sure feels good to be unified in belief and bathe in the light of Jehovah and not stumbling around.
Just so you know, there are other people and/or groups out there who believe that "Jesus is Michael". You (all) teach different details about this doctrine though, therefore, the "Jesus is Michael" believers aren't any more unified than "trinity believers" are unified.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that.


There are various groups or individuals who believe in the "Urantia Book", and that book claims that Jesus is Michael, but makes a few different claims about Michael than what you make (according to Wiki.) There is a jw splinter group (or at least there used to be) that believed in the Urantia book and that Jesus is Michael. Not too far a leap I suppose. I only know about that book because I had some experience and discussions with the splinter jw group, and I needed to look at the Urantia book for their sake, to be able to hold it and its teachings up to the Light (Christ), and then show them where its teachings are not in line with Christ and His teachings.

Test the inspired expressions, right?


And despite the accusations that some continue to toss at me, that is all I have done with jw teachings as well. Hold them up to Christ (the Truth and the Light), testing them against Him and His word, and then remaining in Christ. I have done the very same thing on this forum with other religion/religious teachings and doctrines, as you, yourself, have seen.

I am not against any person here. I am FOR Christ. I am one of HIS witnesses.

And yes, I have dear brothers and sisters who used to be jws. But we are brothers and sisters not because of who we used to be (and I was never a jw), but because we are FOR Christ, because we love and follow Him, because He called us to Him.


Peace again to you,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy
- Non-religious Christian spirituality

- For Christ (who is the Spirit)

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #25

Post by historia »

onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:24 am
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that.
It appears that Jehovah's Witnesses inherited this idea from earlier Adventists. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. See QOD.

But Seventh Day Adventists (now) believe in the full deity of Christ. And, like some earlier Protestant commentators, treat "Michael" and "Archangel" essentially as titles for the pre-incarnate Christ, rather than as indicating that Jesus is a created angelic being, as Jehovah's Witnesses do.

This illustrates tam's point well, I think -- and shows that Eloi's objection in post #23 is demonstrably false -- as "Jesus is Michael" means very different things to these two groups.

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #26

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:03 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:24 am
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that.
It appears that Jehovah's Witnesses inherited this idea from earlier Adventists. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. See QOD.

But Seventh Day Adventists (now) believe in the full deity of Christ. And, like some earlier Protestant commentators, treat "Michael" and "Archangel" essentially as titles for the pre-incarnate Christ, rather than as indicating that Jesus is a created angelic being, as Jehovah's Witnesses do.

This illustrates tam's point well, I think -- and shows that Eloi's objection in post #23 is demonstrably false -- as "Jesus is Michael" means very different things to these two groups.
If I ask an adventist: "Is Jesus Michael the archangel?", he will say YES,
and if you ask a JW: "Is Jesus Michael the archangel?", he will tell you YES
... same answer. :idea:

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #27

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:16 am
historia wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:03 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:24 am
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that.
It appears that Jehovah's Witnesses inherited this idea from earlier Adventists. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. See QOD.

But Seventh Day Adventists (now) believe in the full deity of Christ. And, like some earlier Protestant commentators, treat "Michael" and "Archangel" essentially as titles for the pre-incarnate Christ, rather than as indicating that Jesus is a created angelic being, as Jehovah's Witnesses do.

This illustrates tam's point well, I think -- and shows that Eloi's objection in post #23 is demonstrably false -- as "Jesus is Michael" means very different things to these two groups.
If I ask an adventist: "Is Jesus Michael the archangel?", he will say YES,
and if you ask a JW: "Is Jesus Michael the archangel?", he will tell you YES
... same answer. :idea:
Sure, but your claim was that "there is not any diference on that teaching no matter who is the one who believe on it."

This is demonstrably false. There is a significant difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists on this doctrine, since Seventh Day Adventists only consider "Archangel" to be a title rather than designating Christ as a created angelic being.

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #28

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:25 am
Eloi wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:16 am
historia wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:03 am
onewithhim wrote: Fri Feb 24, 2023 9:24 am
Just curious----what are the other groups that believe Jesus is Michael? I have never heard of that.
It appears that Jehovah's Witnesses inherited this idea from earlier Adventists. Seventh Day Adventists, for example, believe that Jesus is the Archangel Michael. See QOD.

But Seventh Day Adventists (now) believe in the full deity of Christ. And, like some earlier Protestant commentators, treat "Michael" and "Archangel" essentially as titles for the pre-incarnate Christ, rather than as indicating that Jesus is a created angelic being, as Jehovah's Witnesses do.

This illustrates tam's point well, I think -- and shows that Eloi's objection in post #23 is demonstrably false -- as "Jesus is Michael" means very different things to these two groups.
If I ask an adventist: "Is Jesus Michael the archangel?", he will say YES,
and if you ask a JW: "Is Jesus Michael the archangel?", he will tell you YES
... same answer. :idea:
Sure, but your claim was that "there is not any diference on that teaching no matter who is the one who believe on it."

This is demonstrably false. There is a significant difference between Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh Day Adventists on this doctrine, since Seventh Day Adventists only consider "Archangel" to be a title rather than designating Christ as a created angelic being.
If it is the same answer, then there is not diference.

If you ask: "was Michael created?" ... that is another doctrine.

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #29

Post by historia »

Eloi wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:27 am
If it is the same answer, then there is not diference.
No, it just means you're asking a superficial question.

If we ask the Jehovah's Witness and the Seventh Day Adventist to explain what they mean by Jesus being the Archangel Michael -- so as to actually dig into the doctrine itself -- and discover they have very different assumptions and ideas about what that entails, we cannot then close our eyes and pretend there "is not diference" just to salvage an obviously mistaken argument.

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Re: For Trinitarians: Three seaprate persons as one or just one person who is all three?

Post #30

Post by Eloi »

historia wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 11:03 am
Eloi wrote: Sat Feb 25, 2023 10:27 am
If it is the same answer, then there is not diference.
No, it just means you're asking a superficial question.

If we ask the Jehovah's Witness and the Seventh Day Adventist to explain what they mean by Jesus being the Archangel Michael -- so as to actually dig into the doctrine itself -- and discover they have very different assumptions and ideas about what that entails, we cannot then close our eyes and pretend there "is not diference" just to salvage an obviously mistaken argument.
If I ask you: "was Michael created?" You'll answer YES.
If you ask a JW: "was Michael created?", he will answer the same. You believe the same JWs do ...
You don't believe the same adventist will tell you about this.

I have no more time for this ... We don't have to agree on anything, I am a JW and you ... no idea.
Have a good one.

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