Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?
He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?
He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?
Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?
I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.
JESUS IS NOT YHWH
Moderator: Moderators
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 11033
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1570 times
- Been thanked: 461 times
-
onewithhim
- Savant
- Posts: 11033
- Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
- Location: Norwich, CT
- Has thanked: 1570 times
- Been thanked: 461 times
Re: Gods Reality Game - With Himself.
Post #221It is true that Jesus is YHWH? Would you please review this thread ("Jesus is Not YHWH") and read the information and the questions? Would you then answer how Jesus could be his Father, YHWH?Monta wrote: [Replying to post 218 by onewithhim]
Quoting Falling Light August 10:
"The name of Jesus Christ is a declaration of who He is
1. Wonderful
2. Counsellor
3. The mighty God
4. The everlasting Father
5. The Prince of Peace
Jesus was YHWH, manifesting HIMSELF AS A Son. The IMAGE of the INVISIBLE Father,
The very Father Himself. (Colossians 1:15) Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
the Godhead Was Jesus Himself - The eternal creator Manifested as a Man."
Some of the things he said I certainly do not agree with as none of us agree with everything another poster writes.
He had quoted many scriptures and the above copy/paste is true Christianity as I understand it.
"The Godhead" isn't even a universally accepted entity. Many versions don't use that figure of speech at all. Some say "godliness" or another word which does NOT denote a group of individuals. And if God is a "Godhead," how can anyone say that Jesus alone is the Godhead? According to trinitarians, the "Godhead" has 3 individuals in it. FallingLight is way off course.
Isaiah 9:6 says that Jesus is "the mighty god." (No capital letters in Hebrew or Greek.) That is EL GIBBOHR in Hebrew. It does not mean the Almighty God, because that in Hebrew is EL SHADDAI. Only the Father, YHWH, is El Shaddai. No one else in the Scriptures is called "El Shaddai." Jesus is referred to as "El Gibbohr," and "mighty god" means an important, powerful individual, which can be human judges and rulers, and also angels.
"Everlasting Father" is a title that Jesus accepts because he is the way for people to gain everlasting life---by what he did due to the Father's purpose. Jesus followed YHWH's instructions to the letter and gained life for all of mankind. In that way he is a "father"---a life-giver.
Please review this thread and let me know what you think about how Jesus could be his Father, YHWH.
Post #222
by Monta:
The above is referring to Is. 9:6.
Condensed version of my Is. 9:6 personal study:
Is. 9:6 says (KJV):
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.� - KJV. (A reasonably literal translation of the ancient Hebrew text. The punctuation, capitalization, and all the definite articles [‘the’] have been added by the KJV translators, however.)
All Christians, I believe, accept this ‘child’ as being the Christ. Many trinitarians will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,� then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father�
But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God�) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses (e.g., “a mighty god�) - this is the current understanding of the WTS. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.
First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah all right but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god� in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods� and certain judges of Israel were called “gods� by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), etc. ….
[skipping to part 2]
………………………….
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we can see with “Elijah� [“God Jehovah�], “Abijah� [“Father Jehovah�], etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.
Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,� “is,� “of,� “the� [as in the KJV translation above], etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.
….
Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).� - bracketed information is in the original.
….
Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated:
“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace� - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.), footnote. to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.
Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:
“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.�
Of course it could also be honestly translated:
“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.�
And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:
[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.�
This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz� means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil� - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.� It would, therefore, not be inappropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.
So Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God, nor is that even the most likely intended meaning.
Quoting Falling Light August 10:
"The name of Jesus Christ is a declaration of who He is
1. Wonderful
2. Counsellor
3. The mighty God
4. The everlasting Father
5. The Prince of Peace
The above is referring to Is. 9:6.
Condensed version of my Is. 9:6 personal study:
Is. 9:6 says (KJV):
“For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given; and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.� - KJV. (A reasonably literal translation of the ancient Hebrew text. The punctuation, capitalization, and all the definite articles [‘the’] have been added by the KJV translators, however.)
All Christians, I believe, accept this ‘child’ as being the Christ. Many trinitarians will tell you that since the meaning of this symbolic name includes the words “Mighty God, Eternal Father,� then Jesus is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father�
But there are at least two other ways this personal name has been interpreted by reputable Bible scholars. (1) The titles within the name (e.g., “Mighty God�) are intended in their secondary, subordinate senses (e.g., “a mighty god�) - this is the current understanding of the WTS. (2) the titles within the name are meant to praise God the Father, not the Messiah.
First, there is the possibility that the words (or titles) found in the literal meaning of the name apply directly to the Messiah all right but in a subordinate sense. In other words, Christ is “a mighty god� in the same sense that God’s angels were called “gods� and certain judges of Israel were called “gods� by God himself (also by Jesus - John 10:34, 35), etc. ….
[skipping to part 2]
………………………….
And second, another way competent Bible scholars have interpreted the meaning of this name is with the understanding that it (as with many, if not most, of the other Israelites’ personal names) does not apply directly to the Messiah (as we can see with “Elijah� [“God Jehovah�], “Abijah� [“Father Jehovah�], etc.) but is, instead, a statement praising the Father, Jehovah God.
Personal names in the ancient Hebrew and Greek are often somewhat cryptic to us today. The English Bible translator must fill in the missing minor words (especially in names composed of two or more Hebrew words) such as “my,� “is,� “of,� “the� [as in the KJV translation above], etc. in whatever way he thinks best in order to make sense for us today in English.
….
Those missing minor words that the translator must supply at his own discretion can often make a vital difference! - For example, the footnote for Gen. 17:5 in The NIV Study Bible: The name ‘Abram’ “means ‘Exalted Father,’ probably in reference to God (i.e., ‘[God is the] Exalted Father’).� - bracketed information is in the original.
….
Therefore, the personal name at Is. 9:6 has been honestly translated:
“And his name is called: Wonderful in counsel IS God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace� - The Holy Scriptures, JPS Version (Margolis, ed.), footnote. to show that it is intended to praise the God of the Messiah who performs great things through the Messiah.
Also, An American Translation (by trinitarians Smith & Goodspeed) says:
“Wonderful Counselor IS God Almighty, Father forever, Prince of Peace.�
Of course it could also be honestly translated:
“The Wonderful Counselor and Mighty God Is the Eternal Father of the Prince of Peace.�
And the Tanakh by the JPS, 1985, translates it:
[a] “The Mighty God is planning grace;
The Eternal Father [is] a peaceable ruler.�
This latter translation seems particularly appropriate since it is in the form of a parallelism. Not only was the previous symbolic personal name introduced by Isaiah at Is. 8:1 a parallelism (“Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz� means [a]“quick to the plunder; swift to the spoil� - NIV footnote) but the very introduction to this Messianic name at Is. 9:6 is itself a parallelism: [a]“For unto us a child is born; unto us a son is given.� It would, therefore, not be inappropriate to find that this name, too, was in the form of a parallelism as translated by the Tanakh above.
So Is. 9:6 does not necessarily imply that Jesus is Jehovah God, nor is that even the most likely intended meaning.
Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH
Post #223You have only touched and did not quote references or parts of it that are meaningful to you. I have not seen any Bibles with YHWH in it only God and Jehovah in OT and Lord and Christ in NT. Hard to respond.onewithhim wrote: Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?
He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?
He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?
Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?
I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.
Quote: "He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," -that's not in my Bible but do convince with refference.
Post #224
Monta wrote:
Every Hebrew OT text used by today's Bible translators has YHWH about 6000 times as God's only personal name. Whether the translators decide to honestly transliterate YHWH as 'Yahweh,' 'Yehowah,' or 'Jehovah' is a matter of personal choice. However, those translators who dishonestly translate YHWH as 'LORD' or 'GOD' apparently don't believe the Bible is really the word of God and don't mind changing the meaning. - Ps. 83:16-18, KJV.
Maybe 'continually' is an overstatement for 'God's Son'. But here are two in the NRSV:
NRSV:
can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? - Jn 10:36.
NRSV
"He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he wants to; for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’" - Matt. 27:43.
Of Course we can find a number of other places where Jesus is called 'the Son of God' or 'God's Son.' - e.g., Matt. 14:33; 16:16; 26:63, 64; 27:54. And this is clearly the point that onewithhim was making.
You have only touched and did not quote references or parts of it that are meaningful to you. I have not seen any Bibles with YHWH in it only God and Jehovah in OT and Lord and Christ in NT. Hard to respond.
Every Hebrew OT text used by today's Bible translators has YHWH about 6000 times as God's only personal name. Whether the translators decide to honestly transliterate YHWH as 'Yahweh,' 'Yehowah,' or 'Jehovah' is a matter of personal choice. However, those translators who dishonestly translate YHWH as 'LORD' or 'GOD' apparently don't believe the Bible is really the word of God and don't mind changing the meaning. - Ps. 83:16-18, KJV.
Quote: "He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," -that's not in my Bible but do convince with refference.
Maybe 'continually' is an overstatement for 'God's Son'. But here are two in the NRSV:
NRSV:
can you say that the one whom the Father has sanctified and sent into the world is blaspheming because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’? - Jn 10:36.
NRSV
"He trusts in God; let God deliver him now, if he wants to; for he said, ‘I am God’s Son.’" - Matt. 27:43.
Of Course we can find a number of other places where Jesus is called 'the Son of God' or 'God's Son.' - e.g., Matt. 14:33; 16:16; 26:63, 64; 27:54. And this is clearly the point that onewithhim was making.
-
Willum
- Savant
- Posts: 9017
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
- Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
- Has thanked: 35 times
- Been thanked: 82 times
Post #225
[Replying to post 223 by tigger2]
Hebrew and more appropriately, Phoenician and Canaanite didn't use vowels.
Therefore the spelling of YHVH would be the ONLY way to write Yahu, or if you insist, Yahweh.
It is dishonest to purport any reverence or holiness to this writing of God's name.
Yahu is a storm god, whose name is simply very close to Jove's, which when spelled phonetically is Jehovah, or identically Yahweh.
Hebrew and more appropriately, Phoenician and Canaanite didn't use vowels.
Therefore the spelling of YHVH would be the ONLY way to write Yahu, or if you insist, Yahweh.
It is dishonest to purport any reverence or holiness to this writing of God's name.
Yahu is a storm god, whose name is simply very close to Jove's, which when spelled phonetically is Jehovah, or identically Yahweh.
I will never understand how someone who claims to know the ultimate truth, of God, believes they deserve respect, when they cannot distinguish it from a fairy-tale.
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
You know, science and logic are hard: Religion and fairy tales might be more your speed.
To continue to argue for the Hebrew invention of God is actually an insult to the very concept of a God. - Divine Insight
-
liamconnor
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3170
- Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 1:18 pm
Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH
Post #226[Replying to post 1 by onewithhim]
I do not recall the word 'YHWH' ever proceeding from Jesus' lips. He says 'God' and 'Father'. You have read into both terms 'YHWH'.
All references to the O.T. are out of date for the discussion, for the O.T. knows nothing of N.T. trinitarianism. The N.T. authors took the various names used of God in the o.t. and distributed them between God the Son and God the Father.
The incarnate God the Son, Jesus, is frequently given the Greek translation for YHWH. God the Father is frequently given the Greek translation for Elohim. Thus Jesus is Lord, and the father is God. Two divine names.
You can argue that the N.t. authors are wrong; but the fact that this distinction is made is glaring.
I do not recall the word 'YHWH' ever proceeding from Jesus' lips. He says 'God' and 'Father'. You have read into both terms 'YHWH'.
All references to the O.T. are out of date for the discussion, for the O.T. knows nothing of N.T. trinitarianism. The N.T. authors took the various names used of God in the o.t. and distributed them between God the Son and God the Father.
The incarnate God the Son, Jesus, is frequently given the Greek translation for YHWH. God the Father is frequently given the Greek translation for Elohim. Thus Jesus is Lord, and the father is God. Two divine names.
You can argue that the N.t. authors are wrong; but the fact that this distinction is made is glaring.
-
Checkpoint
- Prodigy
- Posts: 4069
- Joined: Sun Mar 27, 2016 10:07 pm
- Has thanked: 105 times
- Been thanked: 64 times
Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH
Post #227[Replying to post 225 by liamconnor]
That is because that name never appears in NT Greek, having been replaced in common usage by "Lord".
I do not recall the word 'YHWH' ever proceeding from Jesus' lips. He says 'God' and 'Father'. You have read into both terms 'YHWH'.
That is because that name never appears in NT Greek, having been replaced in common usage by "Lord".
-
liamconnor
- Prodigy
- Posts: 3170
- Joined: Sun May 31, 2015 1:18 pm
Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH
Post #228[Replying to post 226 by Checkpoint]
I believe my awareness of that was made clear in the OP.
The O.T. was in Hebrew. It had various Hebraic terms for God, in English Lord and God. Lord translates the tetragrammaton, also transliterated Yahweh. God translates Elohim. In the O.T., YWHW/Lord is the name used of the same God when His covenantal aspect is in focus: that is, when he is thought of as Israel's redeemer from Exile.
When the O.T. was translated into Greek, the Hebrew YHWH/Lord was assigned the Greek Kurios/Lord; the Hebrew Elohim/God, Theos/God.
In the N.T. Greek, Jesus is frequently given the title Kurios in contexts where it is clear the O.T. YHWH is alluded to.
Neither Paul nor John had any problem calling Jesus YHWH.
I believe my awareness of that was made clear in the OP.
The O.T. was in Hebrew. It had various Hebraic terms for God, in English Lord and God. Lord translates the tetragrammaton, also transliterated Yahweh. God translates Elohim. In the O.T., YWHW/Lord is the name used of the same God when His covenantal aspect is in focus: that is, when he is thought of as Israel's redeemer from Exile.
When the O.T. was translated into Greek, the Hebrew YHWH/Lord was assigned the Greek Kurios/Lord; the Hebrew Elohim/God, Theos/God.
In the N.T. Greek, Jesus is frequently given the title Kurios in contexts where it is clear the O.T. YHWH is alluded to.
Neither Paul nor John had any problem calling Jesus YHWH.
Post #229
liamconnor wrote:
" Lord translates the tetragrammaton." Actually "LORD" grossly MISTRANSLATES YHWH.
"When the O.T. was translated into Greek, the Hebrew YHWH/Lord was assigned the Greek Kurios/Lord". Actually when the Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew, For the first few centuries (as the remaining fragments of the Septuagint from that period show) the tetragrammaton was written in, sometimes in Hebrew and sometimes in Greek transliteration.
It appears that when the Jews abandoned the Septuagint and later Christians began copying it for their own use, the name was omitted and replaced with kurios. I believe this happened around 135 A.D. when the Jewish 'Messiah,' Bar Kochba, drove the Christians away from being a sect of Judaism.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... ians.html
I believe my awareness of that was made clear in the OP.
The O.T. was in Hebrew. It had various Hebraic terms for God, in English Lord and God. Lord translates the tetragrammaton, also transliterated Yahweh. God translates Elohim. In the O.T., YWHW/Lord is the name used of the same God when His covenantal aspect is in focus: that is, when he is thought of as Israel's redeemer from Exile.
When the O.T. was translated into Greek, the Hebrew YHWH/Lord was assigned the Greek Kurios/Lord; the Hebrew Elohim/God, Theos/God.
In the N.T. Greek, Jesus is frequently given the title Kurios in contexts where it is clear the O.T. YHWH is alluded to.
Neither Paul nor John had any problem calling Jesus YHWH.
" Lord translates the tetragrammaton." Actually "LORD" grossly MISTRANSLATES YHWH.
"When the O.T. was translated into Greek, the Hebrew YHWH/Lord was assigned the Greek Kurios/Lord". Actually when the Septuagint was translated from the Hebrew, For the first few centuries (as the remaining fragments of the Septuagint from that period show) the tetragrammaton was written in, sometimes in Hebrew and sometimes in Greek transliteration.
It appears that when the Jews abandoned the Septuagint and later Christians began copying it for their own use, the name was omitted and replaced with kurios. I believe this happened around 135 A.D. when the Jewish 'Messiah,' Bar Kochba, drove the Christians away from being a sect of Judaism.
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.co ... ians.html
Re: JESUS IS NOT YHWH
Post #230[Replying to post 227 by liamconnor]
"In the N.T. Greek, Jesus is frequently given the title Kurios in contexts where it is clear the O.T. YHWH is alluded to.
Neither Paul nor John had any problem calling Jesus YHWH."
We have no record of Paul and John calling Jesus YAWH and it would have been wrong. "Thou shalt call his name Jesus" not YAWH. Jesus was Mary's son according to his human and the Son of God according to his soul - 'I came from the Father'.
After the ressurrection Jesus (by this time the Christ) said, 'I go the Father'; the work for which He came had been accomplished and Jesus Christ and the Divine of the Father had total union. The book of Revelation makes this abundantly clear - 'I am the first and the last'.
"In the N.T. Greek, Jesus is frequently given the title Kurios in contexts where it is clear the O.T. YHWH is alluded to.
Neither Paul nor John had any problem calling Jesus YHWH."
We have no record of Paul and John calling Jesus YAWH and it would have been wrong. "Thou shalt call his name Jesus" not YAWH. Jesus was Mary's son according to his human and the Son of God according to his soul - 'I came from the Father'.
After the ressurrection Jesus (by this time the Christ) said, 'I go the Father'; the work for which He came had been accomplished and Jesus Christ and the Divine of the Father had total union. The book of Revelation makes this abundantly clear - 'I am the first and the last'.
