No one deserves to go to Hell

[Jake]

No one deserves to go to Hell. According to the Bible, Hell is a lake of burning sulfur. It's probably several thousand degrees. Not to mention the fact that Hell must expand as more souls enter it each day, so the temperature could actually be increasing. But no matter the exact temperature of the burning lake, I'm here to argue that no one, not even Hitler, deserves Hell. Let's use Hitler as an example, because if I prove he doesn't deserve Hell, I think we can assume no one else does either.

I'll provide you with some approximated statistics. The exact numbers don't matter all that much. About eleven million people died in the Holocaust. Now, the natural life expectancy during that time period was about 65. Let's assume there was an even distribution of ages (0-65) throughout the victims of the Holocaust. About 167,000 people from each of the age groups died. So 167,000 newborns were robbed of 65 years of life, 167,000 one-year-olds were robbed of 64 years of life, and so on. So each victim was robbed of 33 years of life on average, or all of the victims were collectively robbed of 363,000,000 years of life, depending on how you want to look at it. And, of course, I haven't even accounted for the suffering caused to the Holocaust survivors (and the suffering of the dead victims BEFORE they died).

Now, it would be justifiable to rob Hitler of 363 million years of life, would it not? Unfortunately, that's completely impossible. Even if we had managed to find and execute Hitler before he died, his crime would have dwarfed the meager punishment we were able to deal out. Some might argue that he is now getting exactly what he deserves in Hell. But let's think about that for a moment.

The other day, I picked up a firework on the Fourth of July and burned by thumb. (I know, I know, it wasn't very responsible of me!) Anyway, it hurt pretty badly. I shudder to think about having that pain in every part of my body. But when I think about having that pain in my body permanently, and at several hundred times the intensity, the pain I would be enduring is inconceivable. I'm sure most people here can relate. We've all burned ourselves on hot stoves or open flames before.

Take a moment to try to grasp what "forever" means. Imagine experiencing the pain of burning your fingers on a match, except put that pain in every nerve of your body. Now multiply that pain by a few hundred times. Now imagine having to withstand that burning for ten seconds. One minute. Ten minutes. One hour. A day. A week. A year. Two years. Five years. Ten years. A hundred years. A thousand years. A million years. Five trillion years. Even a few hours could drive a person to insanity. But think about trillions of years passing by, and you are no closer to being relieved from the pain. Think of a quadrillion years times a quintillion years times a Googolplex years, feeling the burning of the sulfur as intensely as you felt it at the beginning of your torment.

Furthermore, punishment is meant to deter future crimes, and since those who are in Hell are already dead, they are being tortured pointlessly. I fail to see the purpose in this. It seems to be simply a product of God's vengeance and sadism. Although in his defense, he is immortal, and perhaps does not realize that time seems to pass more slowly for humans than it does for him. If God is immortal, then a second to him is an infinite amount of time to us, and he probably has no concept of how long forever actually is. Regardless, no one deserves Hell whether God realizes what he's doing to the damned or not.

If you try to convince me that Hitler actually deserves this punishment, a punishment of far greater torment than he ever delivered to any other humans, lasting an INFINITE amount of time longer than the mere 363 million years of life he stole, then you have indeed no moral compass. I would even categorize you as dangerous or unstable. But not even you deserve Hell. No one deserves Hell. Not the Devil, not even God, who puts people there in the first place.

I dare you to prove me wrong. I dare you to conceive of a crime that could be worthy of even a million years in Hell.

Before I open the floor to discussion, let me say that I understand some people may know in the back of their minds that Hell is wrong, but they would never admit it for fear of going there themselves. While I think it's sad that anyone could delude themselves to being so fearful, I would also ask that anyone who agrees with me, but doesn't want to admit it, not argue against me. I'm looking to debate anyone who genuinely believes some people deserve Hell. If you don't want to agree with me for fear of angering God, just push that thought further into the back of your mind and forget you ever saw this post.

Now then, let the debate begin.

[Jake]

Just to make a quick point: no, I don't think Heaven is justified, because finite deeds do not deserve infinite reward. However, I have no objection to Heaven, since it's not hurting anyone. What's wrong with giving someone something better than they deserve? It's not the same as giving someone something worse than they deserve.

However, I think I may have made a mistake in starting this debate. I assumed it would be simple to only assume Hell is real and nothing else, but now I'm realizing it's more complicated than that. It's not fair to assume the God of the Bible is real, but then deny Christian debaters the right to assume God is justified in everything, like it states in the Bible. It's too difficult to decide what is true and what isn't for the purpose of this debate.

Therefor I'm going to drop out of this debate and head back to the Christianity and Apologetics forum to continue to argue against the existence of God, since I admit I don't have the proper knowledge of the Bible to debate the finer points of its scriptures in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum. I figured it would be a simple matter to convince people Hell is unjustified, but now I realize it's more complicated than that because it's impossible to agree upon what should be believed in the Bible and what shouldn't.

Sorry for wasting everyone's time.

[myth-one.com]

However, I think I may have made a mistake in starting this debate. I assumed it would be simple to only assume Hell is real and nothing else, but now I'm realizing it's more complicated than that. It's not fair to assume the God of the Bible is real, but then deny Christian debaters the right to assume God is justified in everything, like it states in the Bible. It's too difficult to decide what is true and what isn't for the purpose of this debate.

Actually, God has to be just and true:

Great and marvelous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. (Revelation 15:3)

So God has restrictions. He cannot lie or be unjust.

In your original posting, you effectively described what most Christians truly believe as the eternal fate of nonbelievers.

It was apparent by your words that you believe no one is deserving of that fate.

I agree!

If we two humans (one Atheist and one Christian) can recognize that fate as being unjust to anyone (even Hitler), then certainly a God should recognize it as unjust also. And if it is unjust -- then it isn't true, because God cannot be unjust.

. . . I admit I don't have the proper knowledge of the Bible to debate the finer points of its scriptures in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma forum.

The conclusion you reached that no one deserves such a fate, and thus it's all bunk -- is the same conclusion many reach and is why it is prophesied in the scriptures that the Church will fail in its mission of spreading the gospel good news to all the nations.

Billions of humans being tortured eternally in the fires of hell is good news to no one!

God Bless!

[JohnPaul]

myth-one.com wrote:

In your original posting, you effectively described what most Christians truly believe as the eternal fate of nonbelievers.

But of course you will pray for us!

[Choir Loft]

I dare you to prove me wrong. I dare you to conceive of a crime that could be worthy of even a million years in Hell.

If you don't want to agree with me for fear of angering God, just push that thought further into the back of your mind and forget you ever saw this post.

Aren't you the clever little jackal.

Yours is a child's mind in a man's body comfortably pecking away on his keyboard and pronouncing judgments upon people and the Lord of Heaven without so much as an ounce of appreciation or understanding of things like morality and suffering and love and life and death. Yet you bite and tear away at things which have no meaning to you at all - and in that singular place of arrogance and foolishness you claim ultimate autonomy. Error is your diet and war with God may be your inheritance if you do not turn away from the path you've chosen for yourself.

Yours is the crime which is worthy of eternity apart from God. Your pride, your pretentious self-righteous attitude, your conceit and your unjust opinion of the Most High are but a few of those things which make YOU worthy of the eternal black flames of hell. You tell yourself that you are dining on meat and drink but you are really feeding on a fool's dinner of ashes and rot.

I disagree with you because you're wrong, not that you can see that or that you plan to examine your position seriously. You won't, despite any argument presented to you.

I disagree with you because God has been kind to me. God has loved me and shown me many good things. He has saved me in every way that a man can be saved. In my imperfect way, I love Him for it.

Do I fear God? You'd better believe it! A small man may fear a large man if he is wise and wants to avoid a beating. You do not fear God and in that do you prove yourself a fool who is worthy of eternal punishment. I wouldn't wish such a thing on a mad dog, but at this point you are further gone than that.

"What a fool believes he sees
No wise man has the power to reason away."
WHAT A FOOL BELIEVES
- The Doobie Brothers
Lyrics © Kenny Loggins - Gnossos Music and Milk Money Music

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Jake]

People like you are dangerous. Fortunately, with time, the older generations will die off and the younger generations may be properly educated and enlightened. Your words don't bother me because all I have to do is wait for atheism to spread.

[ttruscott]

...

No one deserves Hell. Not the Devil, not even God, who puts people there in the first place.

I dare you to prove me wrong. I dare you to conceive of a crime that could be worthy of even a million years in Hell.

...

I'll try one last time just in case:

There is no crime that puts anyone in hell.

There is what kind of person we have self chosen to eternally become.

Who we have chosen to BE by free will is the crux, NOT WHAT CRIMES WE HAVE DONE.

How do I know? The same crime done both by an elect and by a non-elect: the elect is brought to the cross and forgiven; the non-elect is not and is left to his fate.

Who you are, ie what is your relationship to GOD is what is important, not how you express your evil.

Choose to be outside of GOD's love, GOD's will, GOD's compassion and GOD's election and what is there for you?

YOU ARE OUTSIDE!!! BY YOUR OWN CHOICE!

Does free will mean anything to you at all? Well, should GOD deny your free will, make you a meat puppet to save you from your choice to be outside of HIS salvation?

Even life as a robot is life to You? But not to GOD...life as a robot is an abomination which you learned before you took the chance and put your faith in a reality without a real GOD and rejected HIM, much to your chagrine when HE proved HIMself by creating the physical universe before your very eyes!

[YOU is generic, just part of the flow...not you, Jake. For all I know you are an elect brother looking for a reason to believe.]

Of course this is too easy to just ignore so you can keep blaming GOD for being harsh because no crime is worth a billion years in hell.

But where would you put a demon like satan who is so dedicated to his evil he will not, therefore cannot ever change? What's to be done once pure evil is unleashed upon the family? Your family?

What say then?

Peace, Ted

[Serpent Oracle]

Btw not picking on you Ted..was invited here to assist the author of the thread, by the author of the thread.

Peace!

Cool, are you like a virtual bodyguard or something?

Not really.

I think Jake realises I am on his team...can't a guy call on his team?

[Serpent Oracle]

People like you are dangerous. Fortunately, with time, the older generations will die off and the younger generations may be properly educated and enlightened. Your words don't bother me because all I have to do is wait for atheism to spread.

Take no notice of the pathetic personal attacks...

Anger is fear expressed...you made him angry...you made him fear (fear that his argument is irrational and delusional)...with wit and not ad hominem...good work my friend you have them by the throat.

[Serpent Oracle]

Aren't you the clever little jackal.

You are highly offensive and if I was Jake I would have reported your denigratory ass.

Yours is a child's mind in a man's body comfortably pecking away on his keyboard and pronouncing judgments upon people and the Lord of Heaven without so much as an ounce of appreciation or understanding of things like morality and suffering and love and life and death. Yet you bite and tear away at things which have no meaning to you at all - and in that singular place of arrogance and foolishness you claim ultimate autonomy. Error is your diet and war with God may be your inheritance if you do not turn away from the path you've chosen for yourself.

Whatever mind Jake has, at least he has one, unlike yourself with your pitiable dogmatic beliefs in absurd delusion.
Jake questions...and you would have him judged and cast into Hell for that 'crime'?
Jake is right..you are dangerous, a threat to society, an enemy of mankind.

Yours is the crime which is worthy of eternity apart from God. Your pride, your pretentious self-righteous attitude, your conceit and your unjust opinion of the Most High are but a few of those things which make YOU worthy of the eternal black flames of hell. You tell yourself that you are dining on meat and drink but you are really feeding on a fool's dinner of ashes and rot.

What a load of tragic garbage.
You talk of self righteous attitude, yet tis not Jake who casts judgements against people here, tis not Jake who makes unwarranted personal attacks.
Hilariously ironic...

I disagree with you because you're wrong, not that you can see that or that you plan to examine your position seriously. You won't, despite any argument presented to you.

He has a mind unlike you, you are mindless.

I disagree with you because God has been kind to me. God has loved me and shown me many good things. He has saved me in every way that a man can be saved. In my imperfect way, I love Him for it.

Sure He has...why don't you try loving people instead of a figment of your imagination?

Do I fear God? You'd better believe it! A small man may fear a large man if he is wise and wants to avoid a beating. You do not fear God and in that do you prove yourself a fool who is worthy of eternal punishment. I wouldn't wish such a thing on a mad dog, but at this point you are further gone than that.

Of course you fear God, thats the whole point of your religion...to be fearful and properly submissive.
Pathetic...Jake isn't a 'mad dog' you are the one has lost all reason and backbone.

[Serpent Oracle]

..not you, Jake. For all I know you are an elect brother looking for a reason to believe.]

Not if he has the intellect understanding and humility I think he does.