The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[JehovahsWitness]

If you are claiming that Judgment is during the Millennium -- that is incorrect. It begins after the Millennium because that is when the resurrection of deceased nonbelievers occurs. They cannot face judgment if they are dead.

Did you read the links provided?

Judgement day
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012645

Earthly resurrection
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003709#h=29

"the rest of the dead"
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989262#h=33

Yes.

Well would you like to address the points in the links. You make no reference to any scripture or expressions or rationale presented in any of the links. If you quote something from them (as in: " It said in the first link"A-B-C but that cannot be because ... ")I will be better able to identify your counter arguments and address them.

There are literally dozens of points I have so far made in the course of this thread, I feel confent given the level of your study you are capable of dedicating a post per point and developing detailed counterarguments that do not amount to your repeating your original claim, should you so wish.

JW


PS: Where is point #10
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 418#872418

[JP Cusick]

Then God must have got it wrong when He commanded us to choose:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

No.

That is just telling people in this lifetime to choose righteousness and to reject sinning, and all people reap as we sow, and we reap our sins here and now just as we live better if we choose right.

That is not talking about after death to choose whether one will be resurrected, no choice about the Judgement Day, and no choice about eternal salvation.

That is not talking about any after death choice.

After death Jesus already paid the penalty in full, and everyone gets saved.

The "Lake of Fire" means to cleanse and purify, see 1 Corinthians 3:15, while the "second death" means "death to sin", see Romans 6:2-11, so the plan of salvation after death is a done deal.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Only believers are said to gain everlasting life.

Are you claiming that there are no nonbelievers?

Under the New Testament, believing is a prerequisite for salvation. Believing implies respect!

After being resurrected on the Judgment Day THEN (then) everyone will believe.

Some see this as a second chance, but really most people never have any realistic chance in their first place while in this evil world.

And Jesus is telling people to choose correctly in this lifetime too, because this lifetime still matters, but after death Jesus went and paid the price in full for all of humanity to be saved.

Jesus' sacrifice is offered to all humanity. But it will save only that part of humanity who believes in Him as their Savior. That is man's part of the contract.

The crucifixion was not an offering to mankind - it was a sacrifice to the Father God.

Mankind has no part of that contract.

That contract was between Jesus and the Father God, as those 2 worked out the salvation between just those 2.

Children do not get to tell their Father God what they want when their Father has already made the decision.

The very notion that any person can truly say "no" to God or can choose to reject the Father's will and change their destiny, is just not true, and it is not going to happen.

The Father's will - will be done - on earth as it is in Heaven.

[myth-one.com]

Then God must have got it wrong when He commanded us to choose:

I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: (Deuteronomy 30:19)

No.

That is just telling people in this lifetime to choose righteousness and to reject sinning, and all people reap as we sow, and we reap our sins here and now just as we live better if we choose right.

Really?

That's your private interpretation.

The words righteousness, reject, reap, and sow aren't even in the verse.

It's pretty simple:

I have set before you life and death,

Therefore choose life.

The theme of the entire Bible is extending life from a few years to eternity.

God tells us how to do it, then recommends that we choose life.

[myth-one.com]

What will happen to the billions that are resurrected to physical life on earth as "mortals" and who are subsequently judged as being worthy of everlasting life after having been given the opportunity they did not previously have to learn the truth about Christ? Where will they spend eternity?

They will spend eternity ruling the world jointly under Jesus.

Who are the meek that will inherit the earth?

Christians.

[JP Cusick]

Really?

That's your private interpretation.

The words righteousness, reject, reap, and sow aren't even in the verse.

It's pretty simple:

I have set before you life and death,

Therefore choose life.

The theme of the entire Bible is extending life from a few years to eternity.

God tells us how to do it, then recommends that we choose life.

I do not see it as my own private interpretation, but on this forum I am the one showing the truth.

You give reference to Deuteronomy 30:19 as to eternal life, but here is the context:

KJV: Deuteronomy 30:18-20
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

20 That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.
-----

See it is talking about living on the land, and of dying (perish) on the land.

It is not taking about after death, nor eternal life or death.

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 1 by myth-one.com]

Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential!

What does "supported by the Bible" mean to you? I believe the Bible is true but that all will be saved. What I think you actually mean is one's input is valuable only if one uses the same uses the same literal-based interpretation of the Bible you do. Even then, God doesn't let you off the hook...there are plenty of literal references to the salvation of all. The logical connections necessary to build a strong (true) soteriology are not available to a literal reading of the Bible.

When considering God to be the author of Scripture, what the Bible says is neither necessarily nor always what it means.

[JehovahsWitness]

They will spend eternity ruling the world jointly under Jesus.

Who are you refering to when you say "the world": people? humans? animals? aliens? fungi?

[JehovahsWitness]

Who are the meek that will inherit the earth?

Christians.

Tell me more: we have already cleared the earth of all human life, following the return of Christ: so can you enlarge of where, when why and most of all who are these "christians" that "will inherit the earth". What does it mean they "inherit the earth" and where does it fit in in the order of things you have presented?

In short: What are the answer to the questions in the post linked HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 418#872418

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 1 by myth-one.com]

Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential!

What does "supported by the Bible" mean to you? I believe the Bible is true but that all will be saved. What I think you actually mean is one's input is valuable only if one uses the same uses the same literal-based interpretation of the Bible you do. Even then, God doesn't let you off the hook...there are plenty of literal references to the salvation of all. The logical connections necessary to build a strong (true) soteriology are not available to a literal reading of the Bible.

When considering God to be the author of Scripture, what the Bible says is neither necessarily nor always what it means.

Welcome Anomaly!

To me -- Supported by the Bible means it is written in the Bible.

For example:

If someone states that the wages of sin is everlasting life in the fires of hell, the following verse can be used to prove their claim is false:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

I believe the Bible is true but that all will be saved.

So regardless of the number of verses in the Bible which contradict that statement, you will always be convinced that all will be saved?

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Can you quote one of the many literal references to the salvation of all?

[myth-one.com]

They will spend eternity ruling the world jointly under Jesus.

Who are you refering to when you say "the world": people? humans? animals? aliens? fungi?

Our world, the earth, is basically a colony which has rebelled under Satan and some of his angels and broken away from the Kingdom of God. However, the kingdoms of this world will once again become the kingdoms of our Lord and Christ:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan. And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever.       (Exodus 15:18)

The Lord shall reign for ever...                   (Psalm 146:10)

And they shall reign for ever and ever.       (Revelation 22:5)

And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him.       (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Jesus will rule the earth from His tabernacle located in the city of new Jerusalem:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)

New Jerusalem is part of what Jesus has been preparing for us over the past two thousand years. He will bring it down from heaven upon His return.

Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever?

On the good earth!

Once again, Satan with assistance from our clergy has deceived us! The final destination for virtually all of man's religions is somewhere other than this horrible earth. Most Christians have been deceived into believing their eternal home will be heaven where God the Father resides. However, the job site for earthly caretakers who replace Satan and his crew is on the earth, which once again will become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Satan and our clergy have been trying to convince us that the earth is a terrible job location.

According to them we need to escape the earth.

There is no way we should desire to remain on the earth for eternity!

Life on the earth is hell! Let's get the hell out of here.

Let's go to heaven!

The scriptures never indicate that Christians cannot or will not go to heaven. After all, it is also included within the Kingdom of Heaven.

However, their home base will definitely be the good earth!