Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?

[polonius]

In Catholic dogma, when did the Holy Spirit become a "person" of the Trinity such as the Father and Son?

[polonius]

bjs posted:

The overwhelming majority of those who study the Christian scriptures (even if they don’t agree that its claims are true) say that the scriptures clearly teach the divinity of Christ and the Spirit.

QUESTION: What scripture supports this conclusion?

1.
Luke 22:69 "But from now on THE SON OF MAN WILL BE SEATED AT THE RIGHT HAND of the power OF GOD." At first glance this verse looks innocuous but when we see that it is a reference to Daniel 7:13 "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him. 14 "And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might SERVE Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(14) Serve him: In Biblical Chaldee this word is only used of rendering Divine service or worship. The "Son of man" is therefore here spoken of as God.

In context: Luke 22 Jesus answered, “If I tell you, you will not believe me, 68 and if I asked you, you would not answer. 69 But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God.� 70 They all asked, “Are you then the Son of God?� He replied, “You say that I am.� Meaning: (NASB) "And they all said, "Are You the Son of God, then?" And He said to them, "Yes, I am."" " the Son of God" which means not the first created but "the very essence of GOD" as proven by their reaction to condemn Him for blasphemy; 71 Then they said, “Why do we need any more testimony? We have heard it from his own lips.� There is no blasphemy in claiming to be the first created son.

2.
John 8:58 “Truly, truly, I tell you,� Jesus declared, “before Abraham was born, I am!� 59 At this, they picked up stones to throw at Him. But Jesus hid Himself and slipped away from the temple area. They knew what He meant and they knew that if He was not divine that He was speaking blasphemy, a sin worthy of death. Their reaction proves the meaning of His words though they do not sound so bad to the modern ear.

3.
John 10:25 Jesus answered,... 30 I and the Father are one.� This claim to deity was obvious to His audience though it may not mean the same thing to the modern mind but their reaction to what He said proves all: 31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him, 32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?� 33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,� they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.�

4. The Holy Spirit is a person:
"Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit" Mt 28:19

"The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all" 2 Cor 13:14

Although the verse gives us no information of 4th century Trinitarian doctrine of "three in one" etc, it most certainly proves the Holy Spirit is a person. To suggest we are to be baptized in the name of (or by the authority of) the Father, the Son and electricity, assaults our common sense. Three persons are clearly implied in this verse. With 2 Cor 13:14, like Mt 28:19, we have a three part combination verse that demands grace, love and fellowship be equally ascribed to three corresponding persons.

5. The Holy Spirit simply must be a person and is much more than God's power or active force:

A. The Holy Spirit is outright said to have a mind which energy does not.
Rom 8:27 He has a mind. (The Father who searches the heart of man knows the mind of the Holy Spirit who intercedes.)

B. The Holy Spirit experience emotions, slights and injuries which energy does not.
Mt 12:31 "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit " (blaspheme energy?)
Heb 10:29 "and have insulted the Spirit" (insult energy?)
Acts 5:3 "You have lied unto the Holy Spirit " (lie to energy?)
Rom 15:30 "I urge you by the love of the Holy Spirit " (love energy?)
Eph 4:30 (Isa 63:10) "and do not grieve the Holy Spirit" (grieve energy?)

C. The Holy Spirit evaluates, reasons and chooses with intelligent freewill which energy cannot do.
John 16:13 "He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak"
Acts 15:28 "it seemed good to us and the Holy Spirit"
1 Cor 2:11 "He knows God's thoughts.
Jn 16:13 "He will guide you"
Acts 13:1-4 "being sent out by the Holy Spirit"
Acts 16:6 "forbidden by the Holy Spirit to go to Asia"
Acts 11:12 "He told Peter to go with Cornelius' men.
Acts 8:39 "He "caught Phillip away."
Matt 4:1; 1:12; Luke 4:11 He led Jesus into the wilderness.
Acts 20:28 The Holy Spirit has made [appointed] you overseers."

D. The Holy Spirit originates intelligent thought and speaks which energy cannot do.
Acts 13:2 "the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them"
2 Pet 1:21 He guided men to write Scripture and speak from God. The words of the Bible itself were chosen by the Holy Spirit. Energy is not intelligent.
Heb 9:8 "the Holy Spirit is indicating this."
Heb 10:15-17 (Jer. 31:33-34) "And the Holy Spirit also bears witness to us; for after saying, "This is the covenant that I will make with them""
Heb 3:7-11 (Ps. 95:7-11) Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "Today if you hear His voice
Mark 13:11; 10:19-20 "it is not you who speak, but the Holy spirit"
Acts 4:25 He spoke "by the mouth of David."
Jn 16:13 "Whatever He hears He will speak" He will disclose to the apostles "things to come."
Jn 16:14 "He shall glorify me"
Rom 8:14 "being led by the Spirit of God"
Rev 2:7,11,7,29; 3:6,13,22 "... let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Luke 2:26 "He revealed to Simeon he would see the Christ.
1 Cor 2:10 "for the Spirit searches the mind of God" Is the Holy Spirit merely a web crawler of information... a massive data base?
Eph 3:5 "He reveals the mystery of Christ."
1 Pet 1:11 "Spirit of Christ" in the prophets "testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."
1 Cor 2:13 "words taught by the Spirit"
1 Ti 4:1 "The Spirit explicitly says"
Acts 2:4 He gave the Apostles "utterance."

6. The Holy Spirit is a divine person, like the Father

A. The Holy Spirit is outright Called God:
Acts 5:3-4 "You have lied unto the Holy Spirit ... you have lied to God"
Mt 12:28; Lk 11:20 "If I cast out demons by the Spirit of God ... finger of God"
2 Cor. 3:17-18 "The Lord is the Spirit"

B. The Holy Spirit shares Qualities that only God possesses:

Eternal like the Father: Heb 9:14
Omnipresent like the Father: Ps 139:7
Omniscient like the Father: 1 Cor 2:10-11

For starters... I don't know if this is too much or too little but it is enough for me right now.

RESPONSE: I hate to be the one to tell you this, but two simple facts counter your argument.

First of all, only in John's gospel written in 95 AD did Jesus become divine (and also gets crucified a day earlier than in the other gospels) and, secondly most of the sons of God were not divine themselves.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14142b.htm
The title "son of God" is frequent in the Old Testament. The word "son" was employed among the Semites to signify not only filiation, but other close connexion or intimate relationship. Thus, "a son of strength" was a hero, a warrior, "son of wickedness" a wicked man, "sons of pride" wild beasts, "son of possession" a possessor, "son of pledging" a hostage, "son of lightning" a swift bird, "son of death" one doomed to death, "son of a bow" an arrow, "son of Belial" a wicked man, "sons of prophets" disciples of prophets etc. The title "son of God" was applied in the Old Testament to persons having any special relationship with God. Angels, just and pious men, the descendants of Seth, were called "sons of God" (Job 1:6; 2:1; Psalm 89:7; Wisdom 2:13; etc.). In a similar manner it was given to Israelites (Deuteronomy 14:50); and of Israel, as a nation, we read: "And thou shalt say to him: Thus saith the Lord: Israel is my son, my firstborn. I have said to thee: Let my son go, that he may serve me" (Exodus 4:22 sq.).

[evilsorcerer1]

[Replying to post 29 by Checkpoint]

The thread is entitled "Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?" so it's completely relevant. But the point I was trying to make is the holy spirit and god are the same thing because god is spirit and only he can be a spirit. And all of his creation is physical matter.

[polonius]

Onewithhim posted

There are no I AM "sayings" in John or anywhere else.

RESPONSE: Evidently you are not familiar with the Christian Bible.

First He said, “I am the bread of life.He who comes to Me shall never hunger� (John 6:35).

Second, Jesus said, “I am the light of the world� (John 8:12).

Third, Jesus said, “I am the door� (John 10:9).

Fourth, Jesus said, “I am the true vine� (John 15:1).

Fifth, Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep� (John 10:11).

Sixth, Jesus said in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection and the life.�

Seventh, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me� (John 14:6).

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 29 by Checkpoint]

The thread is entitled "Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?" so it's completely relevant. But the point I was trying to make is the holy spirit and god are the same thing because god is spirit and only he can be a spirit. And all of his creation is physical matter.

You sure do ignore scripture. I have showed you these verses many times.


Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Yes the breath of life was placed into Adam after God lowered him from the realm pure spirit, to the realm of dust (serpent food)

*****Sixth day*****
Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.



In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 29 by Checkpoint]

The thread is entitled "Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?" so it's completely relevant. But the point I was trying to make is the holy spirit and god are the same thing because god is spirit and only he can be a spirit. And all of his creation is physical matter.

You sure do ignore scripture. I have showed you these verses many times.


Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Yes the breath of life was placed into Adam after God lowered him from the realm pure spirit, to the realm of dust (serpent food)

*****Sixth day*****
Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.



In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.

A classic example of how you put things together.

Humans were never "pure spirit", and had no existence prior to their creation as "a living soul".

Two and two do not equal five.

You said:

; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul;

On the seventh day God rested from all His work.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 29 by Checkpoint]

The thread is entitled "Is the Holy Spirit just an aspect of God?" so it's completely relevant. But the point I was trying to make is the holy spirit and god are the same thing because god is spirit and only he can be a spirit. And all of his creation is physical matter.

You sure do ignore scripture. I have showed you these verses many times.


Ecclesiastes 12: 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

Yes the breath of life was placed into Adam after God lowered him from the realm pure spirit, to the realm of dust (serpent food)

*****Sixth day*****
Gen. 1: 26And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.



In Genesis 2:16-27. God is a Spirit and if we were made in His image which is spirit; that is when man became a spirit and who knows how long Adam was pure spirit. This all happened on the six day(what ever that means?) ; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul; New day new experience in Adam different phases in His creation. Man was a spirit first and then and only then is he lowered to from pure spirit to dust, and soulish man.

A classic example of how you put things together.

Humans were never "pure spirit", and had no existence prior to their creation as "a living soul".

Two and two do not equal five.

You said:

; it was a totally new day the seventh day that God made man from the dust of the earth and a living soul;

On the seventh day God rested from all His work.

Its called context. So are saying God fell asleep on the seventh day. lets look at the context of Scripture not your opinion.

Genesis 2: 1Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
2And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Notice this is a totally new day, seventh day.
Gen. 2:7And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

[Benoni]

[Replying to post 34 by Checkpoint]

So you to are denying the two verses that declare man is a spirit. No man is not pure spirit but that is how man was originally created not formed that is when God formed man from the dust of the earth and made him no longer pure spirit but a soul man/ a dust man. But when men die their spirit returns to God who gave it and the dust realm becomes dust again 1 plus 1 equals 2. Context.

[onewithhim]

Onewithhim posted

There are no I AM "sayings" in John or anywhere else.

RESPONSE: Evidently you are not familiar with the Christian Bible.

First He said, “I am the bread of life.He who comes to Me shall never hunger� (John 6:35).

Second, Jesus said, “I am the light of the world� (John 8:12).

Third, Jesus said, “I am the door� (John 10:9).

Fourth, Jesus said, “I am the true vine� (John 15:1).

Fifth, Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep� (John 10:11).

Sixth, Jesus said in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection and the life.�

Seventh, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me� (John 14:6).

My friend, it is you who is not familiar with the Bible, period.

What is the particular significance of Jesus saying "I am" in any of those verses above? He is using a part of speech that everyone on Earth uses every hour of the day. What poor chap (who made up that whole thing, that any of them are significant) has deluded himself enough to think that his idea is of any credence at all?

The expression "I am" is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.

[Benoni]

Onewithhim posted

There are no I AM "sayings" in John or anywhere else.

RESPONSE: Evidently you are not familiar with the Christian Bible.

First He said, “I am the bread of life.He who comes to Me shall never hunger� (John 6:35).

Second, Jesus said, “I am the light of the world� (John 8:12).

Third, Jesus said, “I am the door� (John 10:9).

Fourth, Jesus said, “I am the true vine� (John 15:1).

Fifth, Jesus said, “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep� (John 10:11).

Sixth, Jesus said in John 11:25, “I am the resurrection and the life.�

Seventh, Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me� (John 14:6).

My friend, it is you who is not familiar with the Bible, period.

What is the particular significance of Jesus saying "I am" in any of those verses above? He is using a part of speech that everyone on Earth uses every hour of the day. What poor chap (who made up that whole thing, that any of them are significant) has deluded himself enough to think that his idea is of any credence at all?

The expression "I am" is just about the most common pronoun-verb combination in any language.

using the phase "I am" in Jesus day would of got you stoned. It was no small common pronoun-verb at that time.

[tigger2]

[Replying to post 38 by Benoni]

Benoni:

using the phase "I am" in Jesus day would of got you stoned. It was no small common pronoun-verb at that time.

John 9:9 - the ex-blind man identifies himself as "I Am" and the Jews ignore it!