Does Hell Exist?

[Data]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

[2timothy316]

There are certain things consigned to Gehenna-hell that I don't think can die in the sense of complete annihilation, nor do I think everything sent there is necessarily dead. Thus torture is still an option.

"This means the second death, the lake of fire." - Rev 20:14
You're free to think as you wish, but if a person wants to believe in the Bible as the word of God, the lake of fire = death.

The other note here is the two-fold aspect of Gehenna. First, as a place of idolatry, child sacrifice, etc. Second, as a dumping ground and place of final judgment. I think there's a development that makes sense between these too aspects, but the latter, or Gehenna as a dumping ground, is very grave-like in its imagery. i.e., it still very much fits the etymology of 'hell', and what many popularly believe of the notion. (Bodies heaped upon bodies, burning sulfur heaped upon them, etc. etc.)

As humans we personify things. Even dead things. We imagine a field on fire with dead bodies in it, we can't help but think those bodies are feeling the flames. But they are not. Those bodies are nothing more than lifeless bio-matter which will either decay or burn to ash. Genesis says it best, "In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken. For dust you are and to dust you will return.” (Gen 3:19) Many people can't accept that people are just dust. We are atoms. Humans are not spirit creatures wrapped in dust. We are completely dust and the dust that made us as people is what we return to after we die, no more no less.

Are there not sinners living outside the city after the second death? As in, not completely annihilated? As for all the dead bodies heaped out there, I agree. They're just dead.

Living outside the city but not living outside forever. "Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15
What is the lake of fire? Death. Those not allowed into God's Kingdom are not in the book of life, thus annihilation.

[Data]

I don't know was the bush fire literal fire, or some other kind of fire.

That's a good question. Since the bush wasn't consumed by fire it may not have been. It could have been an illusion. Or God could have protected the bush.

But, I know Bible tells that for example Satan is thrown to the lake of fire and that fire burns forever. I don't think Bible speaks it symbolically. But, it is probably not earthly fire.

You decide for yourself what you believe to be true. God doesn't reward the faithful based exclusively on knowledge. He sees the heart. If you believe what you believe because you trust in God then he will see the truth of that. However, if you believe what you believe because you trust in the traditions of men, he will see that. You want to go with God not men such as myself or any other. Even yourself.

I think the lake of fire is a symbol of everlasting destruction rather than a literal one because death can't be literally thrown, the pagan immortal soul and spirit beings wouldn't be harmed by literal fire. The text itself says it "means" the second death, which is a symbolic rather than literal expression. And the meek who inherit the earth and live forever in peace upon it couldn't do that with a giant literal lake of literal burning torment there.

[Data]

You're free to think as you wish, but if a person wants to believe in the Bible as the word of God, the lake of fire = death.

Living outside the city but not living outside forever. "Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire." Rev 20:15
What is the lake of fire? Death. Those not allowed into God's Kingdom are not in the book of life, thus annihilation.

Annihilation. Right. Everlasting destruction. Not just death alone. Everlasting death.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Data in post #1]

The word hell is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word meaning “to conceal,” or “to cover” according to the Webster's dictionary.
This word is translated in the Hebrew Scriptures as sheol. In Greek, hades.
All of these words refer to what we call today, the grave.

So, in the strictest sense of the original meaning of the word, hell does exist.
What doesn't exist is a place where dead people (but not actually dead people) burn forever.

Definition of dead according to Webster's: "deprived of life : no longer alive"
Webster's calls alive, "still in existence, force, or operation".

Yet, the majority of people on the earth today think that a dead person is alive somehow. To call a dead person alive is an oxymoron.

What does the Bible say is the condition of the dead?
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all." - Ecc 9:5
"His spirit (ftn: 'breath') goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4

So the truth of the matter is, if a person is in the grave, "sheol, hades, hell" they are dead and buried. Simple as that. False religions will say otherwise.

I think there are two aspects of hell that should be considered:

What you say here, where hell is the grave and the nothingness of death.
But also more of a Gehenna-type hell. By which I mean a real hell on earth, where God has no say or place. Or where Jesus repeatedly says there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth, which simply cannot happen in the grave...

There is no "Gehenna-type hell." If "hell" (Hades) means the grave, there cannot be another "type" of hell. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is something the wicked will do once they find out they have been wrong and are destined to be destroyed. This probably will take place during the Great Tribulation.

Gehenna / the lake of fire is the grave of the grave. Also of Satan, Satan's minions, and all sinners. Therefore it is by definition hell, no?

No, Gehenna is, as has been said previously, the common grave of mankind where the dead know not anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Gehenna is symbolic of complete destruction. It is like the lake of fire in Revelation 20, which symbolizes the doing away with death and the grave. Gehenna is not "hell."

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Data in post #1]

The word hell is derived from an Anglo-Saxon word meaning “to conceal,” or “to cover” according to the Webster's dictionary.
This word is translated in the Hebrew Scriptures as sheol. In Greek, hades.
All of these words refer to what we call today, the grave.

So, in the strictest sense of the original meaning of the word, hell does exist.
What doesn't exist is a place where dead people (but not actually dead people) burn forever.

Definition of dead according to Webster's: "deprived of life : no longer alive"
Webster's calls alive, "still in existence, force, or operation".

Yet, the majority of people on the earth today think that a dead person is alive somehow. To call a dead person alive is an oxymoron.

What does the Bible say is the condition of the dead?
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all." - Ecc 9:5
"His spirit (ftn: 'breath') goes out, he returns to the ground; On that very day his thoughts perish." Ps 146:4

So the truth of the matter is, if a person is in the grave, "sheol, hades, hell" they are dead and buried. Simple as that. False religions will say otherwise.

I think there are two aspects of hell that should be considered:

What you say here, where hell is the grave and the nothingness of death.
But also more of a Gehenna-type hell. By which I mean a real hell on earth, where God has no say or place. Or where Jesus repeatedly says there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth, which simply cannot happen in the grave...

There is no "Gehenna-type hell." If "hell" (Hades) means the grave, there cannot be another "type" of hell. The weeping and gnashing of teeth is something the wicked will do once they find out they have been wrong and are destined to be destroyed. This probably will take place during the Great Tribulation.

Gehenna / the lake of fire is the grave of the grave. Also of Satan, Satan's minions, and all sinners. Therefore it is by definition hell, no?

No, Gehenna is, as has been said previously, the common grave of mankind where the dead know not anything (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Gehenna is symbolic of complete destruction. It is like the lake of fire in Revelation 20, which symbolizes the doing away with death and the grave. Gehenna is not "hell."

OWH is correct. With hell, people can be released. "hell delivered up the dead which were in them" Rev 20:13. (KJV)
With Gehenna AKA the lake of fire, there is no escape. "The Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented (ftn: imprisoned) day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10.

The only thing the two have in common is the condition of those or the things in them, dead, lifeless, non-existent. (Ecc 9:5)
The false prophet isn't a real person, its a symbolic concept of false religion. This too will become non-existent. The end of false religion will be, since its in the lake of fire, forever. Hallelujah!

[myth-one.com]

With hell, people can be released. "hell delivered up the dead which were in them" Rev 20:13. (KJV)

The Hebrew word sheol is translated thirty-one times as "hell," thirty-one times as "grave," and three times as "pit" in the King James Version of the Bible. Yes, the grave (sheol) will give up the dead when they are resurrected.

With Gehenna AKA the lake of fire, there is no escape. "The Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented (ftn: imprisoned) day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10.

The only thing the two have in common is the condition of those or the things in them, dead, lifeless, non-existent. (Ecc 9:5)
The false prophet isn't a real person, its a symbolic concept of false religion. This too will become non-existent. The end of false religion will be, since its in the lake of fire, forever. Hallelujah!

Revelation actually says that only the devil will be tormented for ever. There is no "they" in the verse:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You correctly state that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, then you state that there is no life in the lake of fire.

But you contradicted that statement earlier when you claimed that "the condition of those or the things in them is dead, lifeless, non-existent."

How can the non-existent" devil feel torment forever?

[Dimmesdale]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

Hell, according to religions in general, is usually a consequence of sin. So a related question which may help in answering the first is, is there such a thing as sin?

Moreover, can people change? If sin exists as a transgression of divine law, and law demands punishment, then how can the offender escape punishment? If not, then punishment is necessitated. The question then gravitates around the eternality of said punishment.

I would say, if there is no shred of remorse for actions done against God or life in general, then punishment should be eternal, or else the offending party really has won. This is because truly evil people are "rebels to the end" to quote C.S. Lewis (I think).

However, it is my belief that true humanity can be, potentially, evinced in even the worst cases. But I understand this is far from universal a view.

[Dimmesdale]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

Hell, according to religions in general, is usually a consequence of sin. So a related question which may help in answering the first is, is there such a thing as sin?

Moreover, can people change? If sin exists as a transgression of divine law, and law demands punishment, then how can the offender escape punishment? If not, then punishment is necessitated. The question then gravitates around the eternality of said punishment.

I would say, if there is no shred of remorse for actions done against God or life in general, then punishment should be eternal, or else the offending party really has won. This is because truly evil people are "rebels to the end" to quote C.S. Lewis (I think).

However, it is my belief that true humanity can be, potentially, evinced in even the worst cases. But I understand this is far from universal a view.

[onewithhim]

With hell, people can be released. "hell delivered up the dead which were in them" Rev 20:13. (KJV)

The Hebrew word sheol is translated thirty-one times as "hell," thirty-one times as "grave," and three times as "pit" in the King James Version of the Bible. Yes, the grave (sheol) will give up the dead when they are resurrected.

With Gehenna AKA the lake of fire, there is no escape. "The Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented (ftn: imprisoned) day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10.

The only thing the two have in common is the condition of those or the things in them, dead, lifeless, non-existent. (Ecc 9:5)
The false prophet isn't a real person, its a symbolic concept of false religion. This too will become non-existent. The end of false religion will be, since its in the lake of fire, forever. Hallelujah!

Revelation actually says that only the devil will be tormented for ever. There is no "they" in the verse:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You correctly state that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, then you state that there is no life in the lake of fire.

But you contradicted that statement earlier when you claimed that "the condition of those or the things in them is dead, lifeless, non-existent."

How can the non-existent" devil feel torment forever?

Because he will not feel torment forever. He will be dead, non-existent. He will be symbolically "imprisoned" where he can't do anything because he will be dead. (Torment doesn't have to mean torture. It can mean that the individual in question will be prevented from doing anything anymore because he will be dead. Really dead. Not alive in your lake of fire.)

[onewithhim]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

Hell, according to religions in general, is usually a consequence of sin.

We have shown on this thread that "hell" is actually the grave, where no one has any consciousness (Eccles. 9:5) It is the place where all humans go once their life has expired. Even Jesus went to "hell." (He was in his grave for 3 days.) Therefore hell is not the consequence of sin. Religions that teach that hell is a fiery place where sinners go are teaching a lie.