JESUS IS NOT GOD

[onewithhim]

I would very much like to get opinions on this subject. I'll provide several verses from the King James Version of the Bible, and I ask you to give me feed-back.


Jesus' words:

1) "Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise." (John 5:19)

2) "My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me." (John 7:16)

3) "Neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42)

He replied, after the Pharisees accused him of making himself God:
4) "Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON of God?" (John 10:36)

5) "For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say....Whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak." (John 12:49,50)

6) To his Father in prayer: "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God , and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3)

7) "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father, and to my God, and your God." (John 20:17)

To John in the Revelation:
8) "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God..." (Revelation 3:12)



Do these quotations show that Jesus was NOT God?

Do YOU believe that he claimed to be God?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #348]

Paul spoke of two types of bodies, and he and the rest of the 144,000 will attain to spirit bodies in the spiritual realm. The earth was never meant to be the spirit realm, and will remain as it is forever. (Ecclesiastes 1:4; Psalm 37:29; Psalm 78:69; Psalm 104:5) THIS earth, not a completely different one. Those of us who will be on Earth will always have physical bodies and will be who Jehovah considers righteous, having come out of the Great Tribulation unscathed, all the wicked having been destroyed at Armageddon. (2Thess.1:6-9) Why would you think that the wicked would still be free to practice their evil stuff for a thousand years on Earth? No, there will be no wicked on Earth held over from before Armageddon, and those who live on Earth during that time will all be righteously disposed---until the end when some decide to follow Satan. After the final word from Jehovah, humankind will be free to at last "come alive," because they have chosen Jehovah's side and can now live forever unimpeded.

Why would God make the original humans physical and then change them into spirits? He could have made everyone spirits in the beginning.

.

Dear onewithhim,
I would like to see the scriptures that you say support your statements above. What you presented is a complete misunderstanding of God's Word and the very nature of who God is.

Your beliefs teach a "works" based belief system which will never save anyone.

My beliefs DO NOT teach a works-based belief system. I have repeated over and again that we must accept what Jesus did for us and THEN show our faith by our works. JAMES 2:26--"faith without works is dead."They go hand in hand. Of course our own efforts won't save us. That's why Jesus died.

If anyone would like to take the time and really study the whole Bible, they would see that I do not have a misunderstanding of God's Word or the nature of God. You say you would like to see the scriptures that hold up my arguments......I have given all that in posts in times gone by, and if you had checked out the posts from the beginning you would have seen the sense in them. It's really counterproductive to post things and then have someone ask for the very answers you just gave.

You said on another thread that you answered my question (above) but I don't see it.


.

[FaithWillDo]

Dear onewithhim

You said:
My beliefs DO NOT teach a works-based belief system. I have repeated over and again that we must accept what Jesus did for us and THEN show our faith by our works. JAMES 2:26--"faith without works is dead."They go hand in hand. Of course our own efforts won't save us. That's why Jesus died.

If anyone would like to take the time and really study the whole Bible, they would see that I do not have a misunderstanding of God's Word or the nature of God. You say you would like to see the scriptures that hold up my arguments......I have given all that in posts in times gone by, and if you had checked out the posts from the beginning you would have seen the sense in them. It's really counterproductive to post things and then have someone ask for the very answers you just gave.

You said on another thread that you answered my question (above) but I don't see it.


Since you believe that mankind is equal with God and can make free will decisions which can be different than God's "will", you have a works based belief system.

If a person has been given Faith by God, that faith will produce "good works". Neither our "faith" or our "good works" come from ourselves, they come from God.

Also, Jesus' death on the cross does not give us "faith". His death on the cross gave Him the keys to death & hell and because of this authority, He has the power to resurrect all mankind to life after we die. But this life is not our full salvation. Our full salvation is having life AND having it free from sin along with a restored relationship with the Father (through Christ). Salvation has TWO parts to it. We must rightly divide the Word.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life (accomplished at the cross for all mankind), and that they might have it more abundantly (individually accomplished when Christ converts us).

Don't confuse Christ's work on the cross with the spiritual work He is presently doing within mankind. They are separate works.

You said:
You said on another thread that you answered my question (above) but I don't see it.

I answered it in my post #339 of this thread.

Please go back and read that post. After you do, you should realize that no amount of study or reading of God's Word is going to bring someone to the knowledge of the Truth. That knowledge is only given by Christ when He comes to an individual with the Latter Rain of the Spirit and heals their spiritual blindness. Only after Christ heals a person's blindness will they have the ability to "receive" His words.

Prov 2:1-5 My son, if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; yes, if you call out for insight and raise your voice for understanding, if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

The truth of God's Word is hidden from mankind and only revealed to those whom Christ has chosen from the foundation of the world. All others will remain blind until He heals their blindness in the final age. Then they, too will come unto the knowledge of the truth:

1 Tim 2:3-6 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Joe

[onewithhim]

Dear onewithhim

You said:
My beliefs DO NOT teach a works-based belief system. I have repeated over and again that we must accept what Jesus did for us and THEN show our faith by our works. JAMES 2:26--"faith without works is dead."They go hand in hand. Of course our own efforts won't save us. That's why Jesus died.

If anyone would like to take the time and really study the whole Bible, they would see that I do not have a misunderstanding of God's Word or the nature of God. You say you would like to see the scriptures that hold up my arguments......I have given all that in posts in times gone by, and if you had checked out the posts from the beginning you would have seen the sense in them. It's really counterproductive to post things and then have someone ask for the very answers you just gave.

You said on another thread that you answered my question (above) but I don't see it.


Since you believe that mankind is equal with God and can make free will decisions which can be different than God's "will", you have a works based belief system.


Joe

But I do not believe that mankind is equal with God. He loved his creation of mankind so much that he gave us the ability to think for ourselves. Otherwise we would be robots. That does not make us equal to God.

Joshua said to Israel: "Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...." (Joshua 24:15)

It is clear that people have the ability to choose. When they choose to serve Jehovah they can live.

.

[FaithWillDo]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #353]

Dear onewithhim,
But I do not believe that mankind is equal with God. He loved his creation of mankind so much that he gave us the ability to think for ourselves. Otherwise we would be robots. That does not make us equal to God.

Joshua said to Israel: "Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve...." (Joshua 24:15)

It is clear that people have the ability to choose. When they choose to serve Jehovah they can live.

As I clearly pointed out, having the ability to "choose" DOES NOT mean a person has a FREE WILL ability to choose. Why do you believe it does?

Here is the definition of FREE WILL: the power or capacity to choose among alternatives or to act in certain situations independently of natural, social, or divine restraints.

Scripture teaches that mankind has "divine restraints":

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

Isa 26:12 O Jehovah, Thou appointest peace to us, For, all our works also Thou hast wrought for us.

Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

These verses above ALL teach that there are "divine restraints" on mankind's "will" and ability to "choose". There are NO VERSES that state differently. Evidently, you do not understand what having a "free will" ability to choose really is. ONLY GOD HAS THIS ABILITY, MANKIND DOES NOT. By claiming this ability for yourself, you are making yourself out to be equal with God:

2Thes 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that Man of Sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

The MAN OF SIN is what Paul calls all "fallen away" Christians (those who only have the Early Rain of the Spirit). We all experience this portion of the path that leads to salvation. It happens to everyone because we ALL remain spiritually blind after we are "called out from the world". Because we remain blind, Satan quickly and easily deceives us. After Satan's deceptions run their course, we "fall away" and return to a works based belief system (religion). This system is what our carnal nature prefers and therefore, accepts as truth. But this truth is leavened and comes from this world (sun/moon). It is not the true bread from heaven.

If you won't apply the correct definition of free will to your beliefs, you are going to continue in a works based belief system.

Coming out from Mystery Babylon the Great (a works based belief system commonly known as "religion") is vitally important because we are saved by FAITH and not by works. Our Faith should be solely in Christ and not mixed with our own works. The work Christ will do is spiritual work which involves Him GIVING us (without our asking) a measure of Faith and the Holy Spirit so as to change us from within. Once He comes to us and gives us these free "gifts", we will repent from our own "works" and will then follow Him. This is conversion and only happens when Christ gives us the LATTER RAIN. To be saved, we must enter into the rest of Christ who does all the work of saving us.

This pathway to salvation is the same teaching presented in Revelation. To be saved in this age, we must "keep the sayings of the prophecy of this book".

Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

The ones who are "blessed" are the Elect/Heirs/First-Fruits, etc.

Below is a detailed teaching on the pathway to salvation (presented in "type") which Christ will cause everyone to follow if they have been chosen to be saved in this present age. This pathway is presented in scripture (a little here, a little there) in many places of the New Testament.

Scripture says that Paul’s conversion is the “pattern” or “type” by which all others will be saved.

1Tim 1:16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

In order to understand this “pattern” (type), we must spiritually understand the steps of Paul’s conversion as recorded for us in Acts 9:3-19.

This first set of verses below “types” Paul’s time of being Called Out from the world. This is the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Acts 9:3-9 And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: 4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? 5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks. 6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do. 7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 9 And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

These first events which happened to Paul symbolize the process that we all must go through to be “called out from the world” (enter the Church).

When an individual is Called Out from the world to follow Christ, Christ will come to them suddenly and without invitation. We do not have the free will ability to choose Christ in our "marred" spiritual condition as is commonly taught. If we did, it would be a "work". If Christ decides to come to a person in the present age, it is a spiritual event which happens "within" us (Luke 17:21). Christ is now "spirit" and cannot be seen with human eyes.

When Christ spiritually comes to an unbeliever and gives them the Holy Spirit, they immediately fall to the earth just as Paul did. The “earth” represents mankind’s carnality. The new believer has risen up out of the sea of humanity to dwell upon the earth. The “earth” symbolizes the new believer’s carnality which still remains. Paul's blindness represents his spiritual blindness.

Since the new believer is still carnally minded and spiritually blind upon receiving the Early Rain, they cannot recognize the “voice” which calls to them. They must rely on being told who the voice is. After being told that the voice is the voice of Jesus, Paul answers back to Christ as “Lord”. Since scripture says that no one can call Jesus “Lord” but by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit (1Cor 12:3), we know that this event happening to Paul is the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul calls Him “Lord” but lacks the ability to know Him for himself. Christ remains hidden (veiled) from Paul’s understanding, just as He remains hidden to all who experience the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Paul then asks Christ “what wilt thou have me to do”? Because Paul remains carnally minded, he believes that he must “do something” to earn the Lord’s favor. The Lord answers him by saying to arise and go into the city. The “city” represents the Great City which is Sodom and Egypt. Once in the city, someone (ministers of Satan) there will tell him what he must do. At that point, the new believer becomes deceived and “falls away”.

From verse 7, we see that no one with Paul experienced what Paul did. This visitation by Christ is only for the person who has been “called out”. It is a spiritual event and happens “within” Paul.

After Paul stands up and opens his eyes, he “saw no man”. This blindness of Paul’s represents his spiritual blindness. Scripture goes on to say that Paul had to be led by the hand. This explains why a new believer readily follows the false doctrines presented to them in the church (the blind leading the blind). The new believer has no ability to follow Christ for themselves.

After Paul arrived in Damascus, verse 9 says that Paul remained blind and did not eat or drink for 3 days. Paul’s time of spiritual blindness and inability to eat the true bread from heaven or to drink the New Wine causes him to fall prey to Satan’s deceptions. He quickly “falls away” from faith and returns to “works” (2Thes 2:3). Because he rejects approaching Christ by faith alone, he commits the sin that leads to death. Now his new spiritual state is worse than his first when he was an unbeliever. He has become a Man of Sin under Satan’s influence.

This second set of verses below represents Paul’s conversion.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. 18 And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. 19 And when he had received meat, he was strengthened.

Here we are told that Paul is “chosen” regardless of His current fallen away state and that Paul will bear Christ’s name to the world. All of God’s Chosen vessels will likewise bear Christ’s name to this world.

In verse 17, Christ (symbolized by Ananias) comes to Paul a second time and heals his spiritual blindness and gives him the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Because Paul’s blindness is healed, Christ “appears” to Him. Paul no longer needs to be told who Christ is because he can now see Christ for himself. Paul can now start eating “meat” (truth).

Once Paul receives his nourishment from Christ, the brightness of Christ’s appearing (truth) destroys Paul’s religious carnal nature (the Great city Babylon/Sodom/Egypt/earthly Jerusalem) which taught him to approach God through Works of the flesh.

Rev 18:10 Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

Now that the Great City is destroyed within Paul, Paul is empowered by the Spirit to walk by faith in Christ (the New Wine/Blood of Christ), the true and narrow pathway that leads to God. He can now begin drinking the New Wine. The Man of Sin is now dead and Paul is “born again”. “Saul” is now given the new name of “Paul”, a child of God.

Onewithhim,
The belief in "free will" (religion) must be destroyed from within a person before they can be saved. Mankind lives, breathes, makes choices and dies ALL by the the WILL and WORK of God. Understanding and believing this truth requires FAITH (which He gives us) and it is this FAITH which will save us.

Joe

[onewithhim]

[Replying to FaithWillDo in post #354]

"Free will" of course means the ability to choose, and I don't understand why you deny this.

[Revelations won]

Dear Onewithhim,

Can you please give a clear answer to the following questions so that all may understand your doctrine pertaining thereto?

1.It is also very clear that you deny that there is only one name under heaven whereby man may be saved?

2. It is very clear that you deny that Jesus Christ is the “Holy one of Israel”?

3. Is it is also very clear that you claim that if Jesus Christ had failed in his mission as the redeemer of all mankind that you believe that we can be saved without the atonement of Jesus Christ ?

4. Is it is also very clear that that you deny that Jesus Christ stands at the right hand of (Eloheim) God the Father?

5. If you claim, that Jesus Christ in not God the Son, then you appear to assert that mortals can atone for others sins?

6. Do you claim that a mortal has the power to judge all mankind?

7. Do you accept that that as the scriptures declare that Christ has all power in heaven and earth that you claim he is not God the Son?

8. By your position you are actually admitting that mortals can receive all that the Father hath, for we may become heirs and joint heirs with Christ by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel?

Kind regards,
RW

[Revelations won]

Dear JW's and Onewithhim,

It appears that my last post was too much for you to respond to. So let's just break it down to bite sized level.

1.It is also very clear that you deny that there is only one name under heaven whereby man may be saved?

My observation is that from your posts it is very clear that you claim we can receive salvation and exaltation, even if Christ had sinned and utterly failed in his mission as our savior and redeemer and creator of heaven and earth. Let’s hear your full and simple honest answer.

Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to Revelations won in post #356]

I have answered these on another thread.

[Rose2020]

This is certainly interesting.
Yet it just means Jesus is the Son of God. He has full authority given to Him by the Father, to act on His behalf.

[onewithhim]

This is certainly interesting.
Yet it just means Jesus is the Son of God. He has full authority given to Him by the Father, to act on His behalf.

That is true.