Adam and Eve

[Woland]

Hello everyone,

Just a few questions I've had for a while.
I would really appreciate some literalist input on this, but if "liberals" (generic sense) know what sort of theological answers various sorts of literalists would typically give to these questions, please write them down if you are able and willing.

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?
2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?
3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?
4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?
6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

Any kind of answer/speculation will do just fine for this thread.
Biblical references would be great, but are not required.

The debate (more like discussion) element of this thread will consist in the dialog which will be enabled by the various answers to these questions which I hope I will get.

I'd like this thread to remain in the TDD forum because of the discussion format I have in mind, but if a moderator believes its place is elsewhere I don't have any serious issues with its being moved.

Thank you.

-Woland

[arian]

Hello everyone,

Just a few questions I've had for a while.
I would really appreciate some literalist input on this, but if "liberals" (generic sense) know what sort of theological answers various sorts of literalists would typically give to these questions, please write them down if you are able and willing.

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?
2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?
3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?
4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?
6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

Any kind of answer/speculation will do just fine for this thread.
Biblical references would be great, but are not required.

The debate (more like discussion) element of this thread will consist in the dialog which will be enabled by the various answers to these questions which I hope I will get.

I'd like this thread to remain in the TDD forum because of the discussion format I have in mind, but if a moderator believes its place is elsewhere I don't have any serious issues with its being moved.

Thank you.

-Woland

The God described in the Bible is evil beyond belief. He is a primitive tribal war-god, vain, vindictive, cruel, arbitrary, boastful, demanding worship on threat of terrible punishment. It is impossible for me to imagine that anyone would ever describe such a God as loving! That is something made up later, and has no basis in the Bible.

The Garden of Eden story is only one of many examples of God's evil nature. Can you imagine a human father treating his children that way? Although they may have had adult bodies, under the circumstances they were certainly naive and inexperienced young children mentally. To deliberately place an attractive fruit tree in their midst, arbitrarily command them not to touch it, and then leave it unguarded was bad enough, but according to the doctrine of God's omniscience, as all-knowing, God certainly knew exactly what would happen, and obviously planned it that way, as an excuse to banish and punish his innocent children and all their descendants.

I could go on, quoting verse after evil verse, but I would soon begin ranting. This is enough for now!

John

What if God responded to your absurd comments about Him in a way a human having Gods power would or might do, like me for instance:

I would take you from this earth and place you on every planet in our solar system, starting with Mars, then take you to Jupiter, Venus, and on to their moons, and not let you die, only feel the deadly gasses, extremes cold, let you see and feel the turbulent whether, the lifelessness, the baronnes from the lack of trees, streams that don't exists on these planets, and then as you are shivering, place you on the surface of the sun to get warmed up?

Looking like a prune from the extremes of the elements you have been exposed to, I would restore your body to full health, and place you back on earth, lay you down on your pool-chair next to your pool so you could see the green trees, blue sky, feel the warm sun (not the thousands of degrees on its surface) and smell the fresh air, the oxygen filling your lungs replacing the poisons you just have been subjected to, and ask you then; Do you still feel I am; "a primitive tribal war-god, vain, vindictive, cruel, arbitrary, boastful, demanding worship on threat of terrible punishment"?

You see, God would not do that like I a human with human mind and heart would do. No, God let us humans go out in space by first letting us learn of the dangers out there. Then watched and waited as we prepared for the journey. We seen and felt space, then stepped on the moon and brought back rocks to examine.

From there we went on to examine other planets and their element make up by sending probes and satellites while sitting in the safety of our control centers. We looked at all these planets, our sun, and measure its heat, the coldness of others, observed their turbulent weathers and storms, and we came to the conclusion that there is no other life in our solar system, nor would we survive even for a moment on any of them. Yet, amazingly we keep finding more and more on this tiny planet we call earth that we so worry-free live on and take for granted.

Then we have the audacity to call our Creator names like you just did above, and look, nothing happened. You see, God lets us learn from our own mistakes; "You shall reap what you sow!"

Now if that is not a loving God, I don't know who IS? Please, please tell me what your version of a God would be or should be, my dear friend? I really want to hear it!

[JohnPaul]

What if God responded to your absurd comments about Him in a way a human having Gods power would or might do, like me for instance:

I would take you from this earth and place you on every planet in our solar system, starting with Mars, then take you to Jupiter, Venus, and on to their moons, and not let you die, only feel the deadly gasses, extremes cold, let you see and feel the turbulent whether, the lifelessness, the baronnes from the lack of trees, streams that don't exists on these planets, and then as you are shivering, place you on the surface of the sun to get warmed up?

Looking like a prune from the extremes of the elements you have been exposed to, I would restore your body to full health, and place you back on earth, lay you down on your pool-chair next to your pool so you could see the green trees, blue sky, feel the warm sun (not the thousands of degrees on its surface) and smell the fresh air, the oxygen filling your lungs replacing the poisons you just have been subjected to, and ask you then; Do you still feel I am; "a primitive tribal war-god, vain, vindictive, cruel, arbitrary, boastful, demanding worship on threat of terrible punishment"?

You see, God would not do that like I a human with human mind and heart would do. No, God let us humans go out in space by first letting us learn of the dangers out there. Then watched and waited as we prepared for the journey. We seen and felt space, then stepped on the moon and brought back rocks to examine.

From there we went on to examine other planets and their element make up by sending probes and satellites while sitting in the safety of our control centers. We looked at all these planets, our sun, and measure its heat, the coldness of others, observed their turbulent weathers and storms, and we came to the conclusion that there is no other life in our solar system, nor would we survive even for a moment on any of them. Yet, amazingly we keep finding more and more on this tiny planet we call earth that we so worry-free live on and take for granted.

Then we have the audacity to call our Creator names like you just did above, and look, nothing happened. You see, God lets us learn from our own mistakes; "You shall reap what you sow!"

Now if that is not a loving God, I don't know who IS? Please, please tell me what your version of a God would be or should be, my dear friend? I really want to hear it!

Wow! Another Christian heard from, who speaks for God. Have you never actually read the Bible? Just one example of God's "love," picked at random:

In the Book of Numbers, Chapter 30, I believe, after the Israelites have burned a city and taken its inhabitants prisoner, God instructs Moses on the Godly, loving treatment of prisoners. God personally commands that all captured men, women, and male children are to be killed by the sword, but the young virgin girls are to be saved alive and given to the Israelite soldiers!

I suppose a Christian would say that God showed his love for the young girls by allowing them to live a little longer while being gang-raped to death by the Israelite troops, but that is not my concept of a loving God.

I know that Christians demonstrated their concept of love during the centuries of Christian rule in Europe, with the estimated 5 million horrible individual murders and atrocities committed by the Christian church during the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Witch Hunts. I will not go into it further here, but I assure you I have read detailed histories of the Christian church activities during these centuries, including textbooks written by clergymen on methods of torture to be used by the church, church records of hundreds of witches tortured and killed, whole towns burned, families butchered, even family pets tortured and hanged as "emissaries of Satan."

Oh, I forgot. The traditional Christian response to all this is "They weren't really Christians back then!" Sorry.

Respond with your good Christian wishes for all sorts of horrible consequences for me if you like, but please do not think for a moment that I am uninformed!

Oh, you forgot to end your post with the traditional Christian promise: "I'll pray for you!" Thanks anyway, but I would rather not have any "loving" Christian prayers.

John

[arian]

snip- Now if that is not a loving God, I don't know who IS? Please, please tell me what your version of a God would be or should be, my dear friend? I really want to hear it!

Wow! Another Christian heard from, who speaks for God. Have you never actually read the Bible? Just one example of God's "love," picked at random:

In the Book of Numbers, Chapter 30, I believe, after the Israelites have burned a city and taken its inhabitants prisoner, God instructs Moses on the Godly, loving treatment of prisoners. God personally commands that all captured men, women, and male children are to be killed by the sword, but the young virgin girls are to be saved alive and given to the Israelite soldiers!

Thank you JohnPaul.

You said: "Picked at random", which is the real problem you are having in understanding the Bible. What you quoted here is NOT 'Christian', for the Son appeared much later in history as Jesus the Messiah. Those commands were according to the law of Moses, which was to show us how difficult it is to 'live under the law'.

Just look at our world today, and you will see this is still happening because people continue to refuse to accept Christ and his simple rules; "Love your God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself - or vice-versa"

I suppose a Christian would say that God showed his love for the young girls by allowing them to live a little longer while being gang-raped to death by the Israelite troops, but that is not my concept of a loving God.

It isn't. You neither understand God, nor the meaning Christian. The 'key' to knowing God is in Christ as written in the New Testament.

'gang-rape'? come now, really.

I know that Christians demonstrated their concept of love during the centuries of Christian rule in Europe, with the estimated 5 million horrible individual murders and atrocities committed by the Christian church during the Crusades, the Inquisition, and the Witch Hunts. I will not go into it further here, but I assure you I have read detailed histories of the Christian church activities during these centuries, including textbooks written by clergymen on methods of torture to be used by the church, church records of hundreds of witches tortured and killed, whole towns burned, families butchered, even family pets tortured and hanged as "emissaries of Satan."

Oh, I forgot. The traditional Christian response to all this is "They weren't really Christians back then!" Sorry.

Oh they were Christian alright, for that is what they claimed to be, but if you have read even once the New Testament, you would instantly see that they were NOT 'Christ-Like' which the word 'Christian' really means.

Just because I put a sign up on my used-car-lot; "Honest Joes Auto" does not mean I am honest.

Respond with your good Christian wishes for all sorts of horrible consequences for me if you like, but please do not think for a moment that I am uninformed!
Oh, you forgot to end your post with the traditional Christian promise: "I'll pray for you!" Thanks anyway, but I would rather not have any "loving" Christian prayers.

John

So would you want prayers from the 'hateful and murdering ones' that only call themselves Christian?

[JohnPaul]

You said: "Picked at random", which is the real problem you are having in understanding the Bible. What you quoted here is NOT 'Christian', for the Son appeared much later in history as Jesus the Messiah. Those commands were according to the law of Moses, which was to show us how difficult it is to 'live under the law'.

Christians claim that the Bible is the "Word of God" and then, when challenged, retreat with the excuse that only the New Testament is the true Word of God, All the rest, three-quarters of the Bible, is only "filler" of some kind, but then insist that we must believe everything in it except the particular things they don't like.

Are you saying that the evil commands and edicts of God in the Old Testament are somehow only the "Law of Moses" and NOT of God? Are you saying that the God depicted in the Old Testament is NOT the same God spoken of by Jesus?

If so, you are not only agreeing with me, but also with the early Christian Gnostics who claimed that the God of the Old Testament was a "defective" and "rogue" impostor god, not the True God. You know what happened to the Gnostics! I warn you, you are treading on dangerous heretical ground here. But don't worry, heretics are no longer burned at the stake in the good old Christian way!

John

[sniper762]

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?
YES
2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?
NO
3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?
NO, JUST DISOBEDIENT
4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
POOR ASSUMPTION
5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?
YES
6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?
CORRECT

[/u][/i]

[Woland]

Hello Sniper,

Thank you for your answers. I'm curious as to why exactly you think it's a poor assumption that disobeying God is evil (compared to your Christian brethren's views), but there are a few questions that I would like to get answers for. I've been asking these and their equivalents for some time now, and I don't think that I'm likely to get any straightforward answers in this thread from JehovasWitness, Hobbes or dianaiad, unfortunately.

Where do the consequences of eating the fruit come from?
Do they have to be so violent and torturous?
Do they have to be formulated in a way that ultimately ends up hurting countless sentient beings for no other crime than being born?
Does any of this escape God's control?

Thank you.

-Woland

[arian]

You said: "Picked at random", which is the real problem you are having in understanding the Bible. What you quoted here is NOT 'Christian', for the Son appeared much later in history as Jesus the Messiah. Those commands were according to the law of Moses, which was to show us how difficult it is to 'live under the law'.

Christians claim that the Bible is the "Word of God" and then, when challenged, retreat with the excuse that only the New Testament is the true Word of God, All the rest, three-quarters of the Bible, is only "filler" of some kind, but then insist that we must believe everything in it except the particular things they don't like.

Thanks again JohnPaul.

I never said the Old Testament, or any part of the Bible is a 'filler of some kind'. It all fits perfectly, like a beautiful puzzle, from Genesis to Revelation. No true Christian will ever tell you not to believe in a particular thing from the Bible, not one. There is NOTHING that 'I don't like' in the Bible, nothing.

I would be glad to give you some Bible-study points if you wish. I have no agenda other than to let people know the truth about Christ, 'Gods Word'. I understand your frustration my friend, there are very few that preach the truth as it is written, because of the doctrines of men have perverted the true meaning that reveals that 'narrow path' we fallen man must travel to regain eternal life that Adam lost.

Are you saying that the evil commands and edicts of God in the Old Testament are somehow only the "Law of Moses" and NOT of God? Are you saying that the God depicted in the Old Testament is NOT the same God spoken of by Jesus?

No, I don't say that. God gave the laws to Moses, so man could learn the wages of sin, all their sins, which is death. Now if you don't like the law, then how would justice be dealt to someone killing one of your loved ones?

You see, the law was necessary, and Jesus came to fulfill the law, for the law did not nor was it able to bring about true 'peace'. Once everyone accepts Jesus simple commandment to 'love one another as He has loved us,' then and only then can we have true peace.

If so, you are not only agreeing with me, but also with the early Christian Gnostics who claimed that the God of the Old Testament was a "defective" and "rogue" impostor god, not the True God. You know what happened to the Gnostics! I warn you, you are treading on dangerous heretical ground here.

Oh yes, I know, my life is in danger daily, and it has been like that for as long as I lived, 55 years now.

Now either God was an imposter in the Old Testament, or the early Christian Gnostics that you mention here were, and that question remains a hot topic amongst both the worldly Christians, and the atheists/non-theists today. In attempt to correct this problem, the so called (man-made) Church has established a doctrine to remove God the 'I Am' from the minds of men with the 'Trinity Doctrine' which separated God into three demy-gods, and it rules anti-Christianity today.

But don't worry, heretics are no longer burned at the stake in the good old Christian way!

John

No, now they are tortured and killed in the hospitals, or their good teeth drilled out so they would rot, their infant kids are tortured at birth in the hospitals, they are followed, their cars get ruined at the shop, they won't fix the problem, and if they do, they ruin other things on it, and on and on it goes.

Oh well, by the 'world hating us' we know we are on the right track. God is the one that gives the final say in all that, all we need to keep is our faith.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 29 by Woland]

Obviously? According to the story, they did NOT have knowledge of good and evil.

Just like if you tell a child "don't press the little red button or else" and he ends up pressing it you aren't justified in torturing him and his descendants while simultaneously deserving the title "loving", I contend that the deity depicted in the tales is absurdly malevolent, incompetent, negligent, and reprehensible.

I work checkouts at a supermarket. My belt has a big red button that is easily accessible to children in a trolley behind me. I have no authority to remove the big red button. Instead, what I do whenever I notice children attempting to press the button is put my hand over it, and continue working with the other hand.
I don't smack children, I don't condemn them, I don't say "You knew what you were doing"...

[onewithhim]

Hello everyone,

Just a few questions I've had for a while.
I would really appreciate some literalist input on this, but if "liberals" (generic sense) know what sort of theological answers various sorts of literalists would typically give to these questions, please write them down if you are able and willing.

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?
2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?
3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?
4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?
5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?
6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

Any kind of answer/speculation will do just fine for this thread.
Biblical references would be great, but are not required.

The debate (more like discussion) element of this thread will consist in the dialog which will be enabled by the various answers to these questions which I hope I will get.

I'd like this thread to remain in the TDD forum because of the discussion format I have in mind, but if a moderator believes its place is elsewhere I don't have any serious issues with its being moved.

Thank you.

-Woland

(1) Were Adam and Eve created with free will? Answer: Yes, of course. The Creator didn't want, I'm sure, a couple of robots living on the planet. What kind of meaningful relationship could He have with them?

(2) Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil? Answer: Yes, of course. What kind of a Creator would make something and put it out there into a setting that they weren't familiar with and didn't know how to behave in it? Any good manufacturer will at least issue an instruction manual so that his creation would be able to function properly. God didn't issue a manual to Adam, but He certainly would have instructed him and Eve about how to get the most out of their surroundings without getting hurt.

(3) Is it "evil" to disobey God? Answer: Yes.

(4) Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil," how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer--some extremely---and perhaps even be tortured eternally, as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place? Answer: They did know the difference between good and evil. Do you think it makes sense for human beings to be created and then left in a garden without any knowledge of how to go about living? That's ridiculous! It's JUST as ridiculous to think that God would make people suffer forever (or even "extensively") in a literal fire that they never can get out of, no matter what they do. God doesn't enjoy suffering. The people who made up the bit about hell-fire do.

The whole reason why Adam and Eve were caused to die is because they KNEW what they were doing was bad but they did it ANYWAY. God had told them they would die, but they chose that result regardless, because they really wanted INDEPENDENCE from God and His rules.

(5) Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans? Answer: More powerful, yes. More knowledgeable and cunning? That's debateable. Eve was thoroughly deceived by what Satan told her, thinking that he had a good point. Adam was NOT deceived, and therefore knew exactly what he was doing when he disobeyed God. (I Timothy 2:14) He wanted to run his own show.

(6) What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil? Answer: Yes. And even if you choose evil, you still had that choice. Adam chose evil, and that is why he suffered the consequences that he did, and all of his children after him.

.

[ttruscott]

I will answer according to Pre-Conception Existence theology as best I can:

1. Were Adam and Eve created with "free will"?

Yes but their being sown into earthly human bodies was not their creation, just their conception as human. They were sown into the world because they were already sinful by their free will decision to stand against the judgement of the eternally evil ones and they needed to live with their evil friends to learn to reject them as good people.

2. Did they initially have knowledge of good and evil?

Yes, they knew GOD called them evil but were not ashamed because they did not think their loving support for their friends (including the serpent) was evil.

3. Is it "evil" to disobey God?

Of course it is.

4. Assuming that any transgression against God is (the definition of?) "evil", how is it meaningful to say that Adam and Eve transgressed against God to the point where perfect justice and love entails that billions of people must suffer - some extremely - and perhaps even be tortured eternally (or extensively), as they ate the forbidden fruit when they didn't have knowledge of good and evil in the first place?

None of this makes any sense from the PCE Christian pov. WE ALL had an intellectual knowledge of good and evil before we became sinners pre-earth but until we chose to be evil by our free will we did not have an experiential knowledge of evil.

No one suffers for the sins of Adam. It is against scripture: Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, The Bible support used to suggest we are sinners because of another's choice is a blasphemy based upon an erroneous interpretation of one verse.

Only those who choose by their free will to do that which they know GOD sees as a sin are guilty of sin. Only such sinners are born on earth.

5. Is Satan more powerful, knowledgeable and cunning than the first humans?

Satan, as the first to reject YHWH as Divine, has a strength of commitment to being cunning that over matches all other sinners. This is his only power, he has no other power of his own.

With great commitment comes great power as GOD allows the free will decision to be HIS enemy to manifest at the level of the person's commitment just as HE allows the free will commitment to righteous holiness to be manifest as power over evil by HIS archangels.

6. What does "free will" mean? Is it correct to say that it is something like "the proposition that you can make a (somehow differently than if you're lacking it) meaningful choice between good and evil"?

The free in "free will" refers to our choices not being forced or coerced in any way by anything outside of our own desires NOR constrained from making any choice pertinent to the decision due to any force outside of ourselves. Nothing in our created makeup or nature nor in our experience can force us to choose right or wrong, to be good or evil or our wills are not free. Nor can we be held back from choosing right or wrong, good or evil by any thing in our created nature or our experience.

We must be free from all coercion and constraint in our options for our will to be free. Human life is constrained by our genetics, our family values, our cultural experiences and our addiction to the enslavement of sin ergo we do not have a free will here on earth.