Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to catnip]

There are all kinds of strange paradoxes you find when you check out the medical angle on addictions, at lest in the US. Certain drugs are arbitrarily listed as illegal, whereas others, equally dangerous, are considered legit. Methadone is just as addictive as heroin. The nicotine patch has nicotine in it, etc. That's why I like to quote the late, great Hyman Rothman, who said, "Doctors, what do they know?"
The Watchtower Society is also contradictory on medicine, citing medical authorities only when it suits their POV. Hence, they will draw upon those medical authorities who support their position on smoking, but still invest considerable stock in Philip Morris and RJ Reynolds, and then turn around and refuse to go along with doctors' advice on blood transfusions, which their religion vehemently opposes.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to catnip]

You know, what I find amusing here is that JW's focus only on individuals they want to ban, ignoring how others find them undesirable pests and have then banned them. My neighborhood, as many in the US, and I know some in the UK, now have stringent what we refer to in slang as "religious-pest-control laws." No more cold-calling, unwanted religious solicitations at your front door. And brother, have the Mormons, JW's, and other notorious pests at the front door fused about those. They can dish it out, but they can't take it.

Another point I find amusing is how organizations such as the Watchtower Society need scapegoats, someone to dump on as filthy, vile. Up to WW 2, the Watchtower Society made Jews their scapegoats, cranking out all sorts of Jew-bating, anti-Semitic propaganda, denouncing the Jews as filthy, vile creatures, whose father was the Devil. Rutherford, who as president of the Watchtower Society for 25 years was a particularly shrill anti-Semite, who ,at a Bible students' meeting, once described the Jew as "the hooked-nosed, stoop-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying to gyp you out of every nickel you've got." When Hitler came to power, they pledged their full support, as can be found in their Declaration of Facts, 1933, and their big letter to Hitler. I can email you copies if you want. Based on those documents, I'm surprised the UK allows them at all. Anyhow, where they ran into trouble with Hitler was their pacifism. As soon as Hitler saw that in them, they went right to the camps. Then they turned around and pathetically pleaded for sympathy from everyone for the great trails they suffered under Hitler. Also, they dummed down their anti-semiticism, though its still there. So time for a new group, and well, why no smokers?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to hoghead1]

As a P.S., I add that I don't see how any sane, rational person can even begin to believe anything the Watchtower Society has to say about health and medicine. It is simply a cult with a proven track record of having thousands and thousands of members who have died, are dying, and will continue to die, including innocent children, because of their indoctrination into an irrational refusal to listen to medical advice and have a blood transfusion. These people aren't interested in health or modern medicine or anything like that at all. They simply want to point the finger at others in order to cover up their own unhealthy, suicidal ideology and practices.

[JehovahsWitness]

Now, among the people in my own church there are very few smokers. ...

Then I applaud them. We believe that making the decision not to smoke is both good for health and respectful of bible standards. I thank you also for not condeming Jehovah's Witnesses as "damned" for our beliefs.

JW

[Yahu]

I guess what you are in effect saying then is that Jesus was wrong for requiring people to repent of their sins and be baptized ; that Peter was wrong in requiring people to repent and be baptized ; that there was no need to preach to persons, because wheter they practiced sin or not, they could belong to the way.

No you guess wrong, I am not saying that at all. What I am disputing is that the use of tobacco is a sin! Same goes from drinking wine/alcohol or coffee/caffeine. Tobacco use is offensive to some people and they have turned the use of tobacco into a sin by religious traditions of man, not the laws of Yah.

Religious groups don't get to make up what is or is not sin. That was one of the errors of the Pharisees. What I am saying is I have no need to repent of my tobacco habit because it isn't a sin that needs any repentance. Anyone one claiming that it is a sin best worry about the beam in their own eye and send their judgmental, self-righteous Pharisee demons back to the pit of hell where they came from.

[Yahu]

"We don't want to hear the truth" - basically.

That implies that your opinion of tobacco use as being sin is actually TRUTH.

[Yahu]

[Replying to theStudent]

I think you are overlooking a number of key issues here. One important one is: What does the Bible mean by "defile flesh" (2 Cor. 2:)? If you were into the temperance movement, it meant no alcohol. But that proved most arbitrary, as the Bible praises alcohol. The first miracle Jesus did was to turn water into wine, and Paul tells Timothy that if his stomach bothers him, take some wine. The Bible says nothing at all about smoking, using caffeine , or using any other drugs, for that matter. The "Puritans" had absolutely no trouble with consuming alcohol or tobacco. If you look to OT dietary laws, we hold with none of them. Actually, Peter's vision of the tablecloth descending from heaven means all that we can ingest are clean and acceptable for consumption. So you just can't point the finger and say something is defiling teh flesh. You have to show why your standards and understanding that such-and-such is a defilement is correct and why others are wrong. And that's no easy task here, especially as the Bible says nothing at all about smoking or caffeine usage, or any other drugs. If you are going to argue that smoking is a defilement because it can have negative side effects, still that really doesn't work. Note that alcohol also has negative side effects, but is still praised by Scripture.

While I agree with the jist of what you are saying, you are in error on one point. The use of mind altering drugs is what scripture calls sorcery.


5331 φα�μακεια pharmakeia far-mak-i’-ah
from 5332; ; n f

AV-sorcery 2, witchcraft 1; 3

1) the use or the administering of drugs
2) poisoning
3) sorcery, magical arts, often found in connection with idolatry and fostered by it
4) metaph. the deceptions and seductions of idolatry

It is the Greek word we get pharmacy from, dealing with drugs.

For example, the Greek oracles would inhale intoxicating fumes to give their prophecies. The use of drugs to intoxicate is forbidden by scripture and opens the individual up to outside demonic influences.

Tobacco and caffeine are not intoxicants. You are correct that alcohol is not forbidden at all but being a drunkard is discouraged.

[Yahu]

Why would you suppose that God is OK with His worshipers slowly killing themselves with nasty habits?

I have dipped tobacco since I was 16 and I am over 50 now. I am not killing myself and have had NO known health issues as a result. In order to die an individual must be guilty of a sin that carries a death penalty under Yah's law. I have no fear of cancer.

You just proved my point that the objection is because your religiosity considers dipping a 'nasty habit' therefore you equate it as sin because it offends that religiosity therefore it is phariseeism.

A denomination doesn't have the right to dictate what is or is not sin when scripture is silent on the subject. Worry about the beam in your own eye instead of your neighbors tobacco habit. Religious demons are as big a problem as any addition demons.

[Yahu]

[Replying to post 24 by 2timothy316]

If you don't mind my asking. Now, I have smoked a pipe everyday, and I mean everyday, since I have been 16. I am now going on 70. I am in reasonable good health for a guy my age. Now if as you say smoking is so dangerous and kills so many people, how did I manage to last this long and stay healthy? I have a sneaking suspicion you may be gong more on media hype here than fact, which, when it comes to drugs, are hard to come by because one is swimming, literally swimming, in a chaotic sea of conflicting, often arbitrary claims from the medical profession, pot being but one prime example. As Hyman Rothman once said, "Doctors, what do they know?"

My brother in law's grandfather died at 77 from lung cancer from smoking a pipe. Diagnosed at age 75. If we are going by what happens to people as you seem to base your logic by. You have 7 years to live.

My grandfather smoked like 2 packs a day most of his life and lived to be 94 and his death had nothing to do with smoking.

[theStudent]

[Replying to hoghead1]

As a P.S., I add that I don't see how any sane, rational person can even begin to believe anything the Watchtower Society has to say about health and medicine. It is simply a cult with a proven track record of having thousands and thousands of members who have died, are dying, and will continue to die, including innocent children, because of their indoctrination into an irrational refusal to listen to medical advice and have a blood transfusion. These people aren't interested in health or modern medicine or anything like that at all. They simply want to point the finger at others in order to cover up their own unhealthy, suicidal ideology and practices.

It's truly a sad thing that people find it so easy to spew lies, for which they have not a shread of evidence to support thier false accusations.

It is impossible to sue anyone on a forum, since you can't know who is posting.
I guess that's why they repeatedly run around delighted to spread malicious slander.

But thankfully there is one who promises to destoy all the liars... in due time.