The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[myth-one.com]

After death Jesus already paid the penalty in full, and everyone gets saved.

"Whosoever believeth in him" gets saved:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Not necessarily everyone who was ever born!

[polonius]

[quote="[url=http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/viewtopic.php?


Tell me more: we have already cleared the earth of all human life, following the return of Christ: so can you enlarge of where, when why and most of all who are these "Christians" that "will inherit the earth". What does it mean they "inherit the earth" and where does it fit in in the order of things you have presented?

In short: What are the answer to the questions in the post linked HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 418#872418[/quote]

RESPONSE:

we have already cleared the earth of all human life, following the return of Christ:

Of course not!

Even the Jehovah Witness teach otherwise. Jesus has returned in 1914 but he's invisible. Certainly, a generation or more have come and gone by now!

And the term Jehovah wasn't in the original scripture but was added to some scriptures in the 16th century.

Romans 14:8 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
8 If we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord; so then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s.

And

Romans 14:8 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
8 For if we live, we live for the Lord and if we die, we die for the Lord; so then, whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.

1. NOTE:
14:8 The Lord: Jesus, our Master. The same Greek word, kyrios, was applied to both rulers and holders of slaves

2. NOTE: kuriw kuriO G2962 κύ�ιος from Strong’s Lexicon
supreme in authority, i.e. (as noun) controller; by implication, Master (as a respectful title)
Derivation: from κῦ�ος (supremacy)


3. NOTE: The term Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century. It is not in the original documents.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah

4. NOTE: The Hebrew vowel points of Adonai were added to the Tetragrammaton by the Masoretes, and the resulting form was transliterated around the 12th century as Yehowah.[1] The derived forms Iehouah and Jehovah first appeared in the 16th century. "Jehovah" was popularized in the English-speaking world by William Tyndale and other pioneer English Protestant translations such as the Geneva Bible and the King James Version.[2] It is still used in some translations, such as the New World Translation, the American Standard Version, and Young's Literal Translation, but it is does not appear in most mainstream English translations, as the terms "Lord" or "LORD": used instead, generally indicating that the corresponding Hebrew is Yahweh or YHWH.[3][4]:5

5. NOTE: Jehovah’s Witnesses have put a strange spin on the subject of the second coming of Jesus Christ. This was due to the failure of a prophecy by them that He was to return visibly in 1914 (updated once from 1874!).

When Jesus did not show up on their date, they were forced to explain away the failure. They did this by seizing on a secondary meaning of one Greek word used in conjunction with Christ’s coming again. That word was parousia meaning “a being present, presence,� “a coming,� “an arrival.�

Aha! They had an “out�! They would teach that Jesus did “come� and was “present� on their date, 1914, but since He did this in heaven, those on earth could not see it! His coming was conveniently invisible! All Jehovah’s Witnesses must believe this today.

https://www.jashow.org/articles/false-t ... of-christ/

Walter Scott Quotes. "O, what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive!"

[JehovahsWitness]

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule [...] This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth[#3] from Satan.

Jesus will rule the earth [#3] from His tabernacle located in the city of new Jerusalem...On the good earth!/ ... somewhere other than this horrible earth.[#4]

Most Christians have been deceived into believing their eternal home will be heaven [#5]where God the Father resides ... The scriptures never indicate that Christians cannot or will not go to heaven [#5]. [...] their home base will definitely be the good earth [#6]!

Err... okay. So what have we got so far? I had to cut and edit to make sense so feel free to correct me if I misunderstood anything.

Christ will come down from Heaven, deceased Christians will awaken and meet Him in the air, and living Christians will be changed and also join them in the air [#1]. All will be together and will enjoy the Millennium day of rest.

There will be no human Christians remaining on the earth [#2].. All will have received their reward and are enjoying the Millennium day of rest with their Lord.

#1 All faithful Christians during the millenium will not be living in heaven nor will they be living on the planet earth, they will be "living with Jesus in the air"

#2 There will be no humans on the earth after Jesus returns.

#3 Jesus will rule the (empty ?) earth during the millenium (?)

#4 There will be a "good earth" /"somewhere other than this horrible earth"

#5 Believers will spend eternity in heaven where God lives.

#6 It is a deception to think that believers will spend eternity in heaven where God lives.


Is that about right? Feel free to correct any of the six points above that are in error

[ttruscott]

After death Jesus already paid the penalty in full, and everyone gets saved.

"Whosoever believeth in him" gets saved:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Not necessarily everyone who was ever born!

I believe that John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. sways the argument, no?

It separates believers who are not condemned from some who are already condemned because they do not believe...and jus tin case we are stil confused, Jesus told us in Matt 13:37He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38The field is the world, and the good seed represents the sons of the kingdom. The weeds are the sons of the evil one, 39and the enemy who sows them is the devil. that all minkind iseparated into two groups, the people of the kingdom andthe[eopel fo the eivl one, BEFORE

[ttruscott]

After death Jesus already paid the penalty in full, and everyone gets saved.

"Whosoever believeth in him" gets saved:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Not necessarily everyone who was ever born!

I believe that John 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. sways the argument, no?

It separates believers who are not condemned from some who are already condemned because they do not believe...that is, not condemned and condemned cannot be the same thing but must have different effects and values, or this verse is nonsense! And just in case we are still confused, Jesus told us in Matt 13:37 He replied, “The One who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed represents the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. that all mankind separated into two groups, the people of the kingdom and the people of the evil one, BEFORE they are born/sowed into this world...(not created since the devil cannot create).

Mr. Cusick, how do you handle Matt 13:26-39, please?

[Anomaly]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

Welcome Anomaly!

Thank you for the welcome myth-1.

To me -- Supported by the Bible means it is written in the Bible.

A reasonable starting point.

If someone states that the wages of sin is everlasting life in the fires of hell, the following verse can be used to prove their claim is false:

Quote:
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Okay, but for starters the verse quoted states the wages of sin is death, not everlasting life in the fires of hell. I understand many of my traditional brethren are so thoroughly convinced of the eternal hell doctrine that in their zeal to defend the doctrine they use a good number of passages that appear to have the "feel" of eternal torment, but actually don't say that at all. This is one.

In my personal studies I've only found two verses in the Bible--one in each testament--that seem to directly suggest eternal punishment. The NT verse is fairly explicit, the OT less so but still somewhat problematic for the universalist or annihilationist.

So regardless of the number of verses in the Bible which contradict that statement, you will always be convinced that all will be saved?

Not necessarily, but I didn't come by my beliefs easily or superficially. I believed and defended the traditional view of hell for many years.

Can you quote one of the many literal references to the salvation of all?

Yes, but with some misgiving; I've been through prooftexting ad infinitum over the years with little productivity on either side of the debate. All the same here are a few....
1Tim 2:4; 1Tim 4:10; 1Jn 4:14; 1Jn 2:2; Rom 5:18; Phil 2:9-11.

[myth-one.com]

Is that about right? Feel free to correct any of the six points above that are in error

Let us do it slowly -- one-at-a-time:

#1 All faithful Christians during the millenium will not be living in heaven nor will they be living on the planet earth, they will be "living with Jesus in the air"

Comical. Jesus is returning to the earth (Let's call it His Second Coming).

All of the Christians on or in the earth (living and dead) will be born again as spirits and meet Him in the air. They will be on the earth. I'm note sure of the habits of spirits, whether they stay in the air, land, splash around. Who cares?

#2 There will be no humans on the earth after Jesus returns.

Where are you getting this from? I said "There will be no human Christians remaining on the earth [#2]..

There will probably be billions of humans on the earth after the Second Coming! All will be nonbelievers as all Christian humans on or in the earth are now spiritual beings -- and no longer humans. But human life will continue during the Millennium.

The Christians are no longer physical bodied members of the kingdom of man. They have become spiritual members of the spiritual Kingdom of God.

#3 Jesus will rule the (empty ?) earth during the millenium (?)

The earth is not empty -- human life goes on during the Millennium. But all are nonbelievers.

#4 There will be a "good earth" /"somewhere other than this horrible earth"

There is one earth -- the good earth.

#5 Believers will spend eternity in heaven where God lives.

Wrong. Born again believers will rule the earth with Jesus for ever and ever.

#6 It is a deception to think that believers will spend eternity in heaven where God lives.

Since the Bible states otherwise:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

Yes, to say that believers will spend eternity in heaven where God lives is deceptive.

The Bible never states that Christians are going to heaven! It always indicates that believers will enter or become members of the Kingdom of Heaven or Kingdom of God:

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 7:21)

The Kingdom of Heaven applies to the geographical location, whereas the Kingdom of God applies to the inhabitants of the Kingdom of Heaven. We are told specifically where the Kingdom of God is located, and it is not any geographical location:

The Kingdom of God cometh not with observance: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you. (Luke 17:20-21)

It is natural to assume that the geographical location Heaven would be included within the Kingdom of Heaven, but they are not necessarily the same. The entire kingdom could be much larger than its center or base of activity which is Heaven itself. That is, the ruler is God the Father who rules from Heaven. His rule extends over the entire Kingdom of Heaven.

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to post 39 by myth-one.com]

If someone states that the wages of sin is everlasting life in the fires of hell, the following verse can be used to prove their claim is false:

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Romans 6:23)

Okay, but for starters the verse quoted states the wages of sin is death, not everlasting life in the fires of hell. I understand many of my traditional brethren are so thoroughly convinced of the eternal hell doctrine that in their zeal to defend the doctrine they use a good number of passages that appear to have the "feel" of eternal torment, but actually don't say that at all. This is one.

In my personal studies I've only found two verses in the Bible--one in each testament--that seem to directly suggest eternal punishment. The NT verse is fairly explicit, the OT less so but still somewhat problematic for the universalist or annihilationist.

Yes, we agree that verse states that the wages of sin is death.

And death is the opposite of life.

Actually, the punishment is everlasting:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment for sin is death.

And death is everlasting.

[JehovahsWitness]

#1 All faithful Christians during the millenium will live on the earth but transformed into spirit form.

#2 Jesus will rule over millions nonbelievers (I presume former "nonbelievers").

#3 "The good earth" is refering to this our literal planet earth.

#4 Believers will spend eternity on the earth with Jesus for ever and ever.

#5 It is a deception to think that believers will spend eternity in heaven where God lives.

Is the above correct now? Are there any errors? If so can you correct them?

A QUESTION:

What will happen to the former non-believers after they are judged as righteous and rewarded with everlasting life? Will they too be changed into spirits to continue for all eternity on the earth (with Jesus) or will they remain in human physical bodies?

[JP Cusick]

For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.   (Romans 6:23)

The thing remains that all people (all of humanity) have sinned and we all live in sin, and so we all have earned the death (we all die).

Romans 3:23 " For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: " KJV

Jesus paid the penalty for sins and that is the only reason that any person gets the eternal life through Jesus Christ.

As it says the eternal life through Jesus Christ is a "gift" (a gift) as it is not earned and eternal life through Jesus Christ is not a payment but a free gift.

And if we look at the entire chapter of Romans 6 then it is declaring the second death to be the death to sin (dead to sin) and into eternal life through Jesus Christ in verse 23.

"Whosoever believeth in him" gets saved:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Not necessarily everyone who was ever born!

But at the Judgment Day then (then) everyone will believe, and everyone gets saved.

To be "saved" in this lifetime means to be saved from the evils of this world, as in saved from addictions, saved from ignorance, saved from the wrath of the flesh.

Just like there is a second death, there are two (2) kinds of salvation, as being saved in this lifetime, and then being saved after death which Jesus already paid the price for every person.

Actually, the punishment is everlasting:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

The punishment for sin is death.

And death is everlasting.

In this case a literal translation is important, because eternal punishment is not the same as eternal ongoing punishing.

We all get punished for our sins and that punishment last forever, but then comes salvation and forgiveness and reconciliation.

We do get punished (reap as we sow) but we do not get continuous ongoing punishing, and that includes the punishment of death, because the resurrection means that the punishment of death happened, and then we go past the punishment into everlasting life.