Does Hell Exist?

[Data]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

[myth-one.com]

With hell, people can be released. "hell delivered up the dead which were in them" Rev 20:13. (KJV)

The Hebrew word sheol is translated thirty-one times as "hell," thirty-one times as "grave," and three times as "pit" in the King James Version of the Bible. Yes, the grave (sheol) will give up the dead when they are resurrected.

With Gehenna AKA the lake of fire, there is no escape. "The Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet already were; and they will be tormented (ftn: imprisoned) day and night forever and ever." - Rev 20:10.

The only thing the two have in common is the condition of those or the things in them, dead, lifeless, non-existent. (Ecc 9:5)
The false prophet isn't a real person, its a symbolic concept of false religion. This too will become non-existent. The end of false religion will be, since its in the lake of fire, forever. Hallelujah!

Revelation actually says that only the devil will be tormented for ever. There is no "they" in the verse:

Revelation 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

You correctly state that the devil will be tormented forever in the lake of fire, then you state that there is no life in the lake of fire.

But you contradicted that statement earlier when you claimed that "the condition of those or the things in them is dead, lifeless, non-existent."

How can the non-existent" devil feel torment forever?

Because he will not feel torment forever. He will be dead, non-existent. He will be symbolically "imprisoned" where he can't do anything because he will be dead. (Torment doesn't have to mean torture. It can mean that the individual in question will be prevented from doing anything anymore because he will be dead. Really dead. Not alive in your lake of fire.)

If God inspired the scriptures, and the scriptures state that the devil will be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire, then the devil will be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire.

You're questioning God -- not me. I can't change the fact that the Devil is immortal and will thus have to be imprisoned somewhere eternally.

Please give the name of the dictionary which defines torment as death!!

The act of dying may be tormenting, but being dead isn't.

Of course, "prevented from doing anything" is tormenting. But only to the living!

[2timothy316]

The question for debate is does hell exist? If so, what does the Bible teach hell is?

Hell, according to religions in general, is usually a consequence of sin. So a related question which may help in answering the first is, is there such a thing as sin?

Many religions, even those that claim to believe in the Bible, believe sinners not forgiven for their sins go to hell, a place where they are burned forever.
But what does the Bible say?

“The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23)

Not hell or a continuation of life in any form. One must decided whether to believe traditions from their religion or the Bible.

[Difflugia]

Many religions, even those that claim to believe in the Bible, believe sinners not forgiven for their sins go to hell, a place where they are burned forever.
But what does the Bible say?

Revelation 14:9-11 says:

Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name.

"Forever and ever," it says. "No rest," it says.

“The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23)

Not hell or a continuation of life in any form. One must decided whether to believe traditions from their religion or the Bible.

Or at least cherry-pick the same verses you do, eh?

[2timothy316]

Many religions, even those that claim to believe in the Bible, believe sinners not forgiven for their sins go to hell, a place where they are burned forever.
But what does the Bible say?

Revelation 14:9-11 says:

Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name.

"Forever and ever," it says. "No rest," it says.

“The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23)

Not hell or a continuation of life in any form. One must decided whether to believe traditions from their religion or the Bible.

Or at least cherry-pick the same verses you do, eh?

I never cherry pick. Revelation 14:9-11 is just as true at Romans 6:23.
Did you know that just because the Bible mentions fire and sulfur that doesn't mean it's talking about the second death AKA the lake of fire. When a person prefaces a scripture with their dogma and then post text from the Bible that seems to support their preface, its called proof-texting or eisegesis. When trying to figure out what the Bible says, it is wise to always look at more scriptures and never try to whittle the Bible down to one scripture. It also wise to keep in mind that the Bible is harmonious at all times, if one reads something that seems contradictory then that person has the understanding wrong.

If we read the scripture without the dogmatic preface all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented and during that torment they will not be able to rest during that time, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke​—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—​that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

Here is a scripture to explain Rev 14:9-11 in plain language.
"This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you. But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength," - 2 Thess 1:6-9

Here is another scripture pointing to destruction not to more life.

Note to explain Rev 14:9-11 I didn't turn to myself for the explanation but the word of God for the explanation. Paul and John are writing about the judgement of the same thing. The Wild Beast AKA nations/governments that have been bringing tribulation for God's people.

[Difflugia]

I never cherry pick.

Clearly.

Revelation 14:9-11 is just as true at Romans 6:23.

Then we agree.

Did you know that just because the Bible mentions fire and sulfur that doesn't mean it's talking about the second death AKA the lake of fire.

Where else would eternal torment with fire and sulfur be occurring?

When a person prefaces a scripture with their dogma and then post text from the Bible that seems to support their preface, its called proof-texting or eisegesis.

Fascinating.

If we read the scripture without the preface all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke​—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—​that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

So, if we pretend that the pair of verses constitute a non sequitur and remove each from its context, we can further pretend that the author agrees with our personal dogma. Got it.

Of course, when taken together as written, the verses say that the wicked are tormented forever in fiery sulfur without respite. That would disagree with someone's favorite "preface," however.

[2timothy316]

Did you know that just because the Bible mentions fire and sulfur that doesn't mean it's talking about the second death AKA the lake of fire.

Where else would eternal torment with fire and sulfur be occurring?

Again, you're putting eternal torment, fire and sulfur together in Revelation 14:9-11 where they are not together. The smoke rising from the judgement of the Wild Beast is what rises forever.
There are other places in the Bible where fire and sulfur denote destruction. Ge 18:24, Ps 11:6; Eze 38:22.
When the Bible speaks of smoke it refers to a place where something was destroyed and it serves a warning or portent. Ge 19:28; Jos 8:20, 21; Joe 2:30, 31; Ac 2:19, 20
Smoke can even symbolically, ascend forever. Like in the case of Edom, the Bible says that after its destruction the smoke from it would ascend forever. (Isa 34:5, 10) Yet, we do not see a literal cloud of smoke ascending from where Edom used to be rising forever.

Again, to understand the Bible read more and compare more of the Bible. Just because those words are used doesn't always mean lake of fire.

If we read the scripture without the preface all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever. The text states that it is the smoke​—the evidence that the fire has done its work of destruction—​that continues forever, not the fiery torment.

So, if we pretend that the pair of verses constitute a non sequitur and remove each from its context, we can further pretend that the author agrees with our personal dogma. Got it.

Of course, when taken together as written, the verses say that the wicked are tormented forever in fiery sulfur without respite. That would disagree with someone's favorite "preface," however.

When the whole Bible is taken together harmoniously as written the wicked are destroyed. That would disagree with a person's preface who doesn't view the Bible as harmonious. When we consider the whole Bible as the preface for the understanding of words such as smoke, fire, sulfur and torment and not religious dogma, it doesn't support the hellfire.

[Difflugia]

Again, you're putting eternal torment, fire and sulfur together in Revelation 14:9-11 where they are not together.

Quite to the contrary, you're trying to separate them where they're obviously within one inseparable thought.

The smoke rising from the judgement of the Wild Beast is what rises forever.

According to Witness religious tradition, perhaps, but that's not what the Bible says. In fact, Revelation 14 only mentions the torture of regular people ("those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name"). In order to satisfy your "preface," you have to not only divorce "the smoke of their torture" from the words immediately preceding and following, but introduce someone that isn't even mentioned.

And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name.

I can understand why that's difficult to reconcile with your leaders' theology. If you want to base your personal theology on the Bible and your Bible includes Revelation 14, however, you must also include eternal torment of those who accept the mark of the Beast. You just have to ask yourself what the Bible says.

There are other places in the Bible where fire and sulfur denote destruction. Ge 18:24, Ps 11:6; Eze 38:22.
When the Bible speaks of smoke it refers to a place where something was destroyed and it serves a warning or portent. Ge 19:28; Jos 8:20, 21; Joe 2:30, 31; Ac 2:19, 20
Smoke can even symbolically, ascend forever. Like in the case of Edom, the Bible says that after its destruction the smoke from it would ascend forever. (Isa 34:5, 10) Yet, we do not see a literal cloud of smoke ascending from where Edom used to be rising forever.

Your understanding of these may be true, but none of those verses say that the smoke is from the torment of "those that worship the wild beast" from which "they have no rest."

Again, to understand the Bible read more and compare more of the Bible. Just because those words are used doesn't always mean lake of fire.

My argument doesn't require that they "always" do, only that they do when the words are used in reference to eternal torment as they are in Revelation 14:9-11.

If we read the scripture without the preface all this passage says is that the wicked are tormented, not that they are tormented forever.

Revelation 14:11 is pretty clear "without the preface." If we take it at face value, the smoke of their torment rises forever, during which they have no rest. I understand the reluctance to accept the Word of God in the face of cherished tradition, but it's even clear in the New World Translation.

When the whole Bible is taken together harmoniously as written the wicked are destroyed.

Not if your Bible includes (at least) Revelation 14:11.

That would disagree with a person's preface who doesn't view the Bible as harmonious.

Whether the Bible is harmonious or not, Revelation 14 refers to eternal torment.

When we consider the whole Bible as the preface for the understanding of words such as smoke, fire, sulfur and torment and not religious dogma, it doesn't support the hellfire.

When you have to chop each verse into tiny pieces and redefine simple words to fit your religious dogma, the irony of your statement is difficult to ignore.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to Difflugia in post #47]

You can view it as you wish and believe as you wish. I have nothing more to say on the matter to you.

However to try and use the scriptures to try and prove hell, one will be left with inharmonious a Bible full of contradictions. I do not believe the Bible to be inharmonious and it has no contradictions. If you do, knock yourself out. It is not up to me to try to convince you otherwise. The reader of this thread can make their own conclusion as to what they want to believe.

[Difflugia]

However to try and use the scriptures to try and prove hell, one will be left with inharmonious a Bible full of contradictions.

That's what we started with. One has to deal with that whether trying to prove something or not.

I do not believe the Bible to be inharmonious and it has no contradictions.

One way to deal with it is denial. Another is to try to trust each author tell you his or her own story.

If you believe it to be the Word of God, wouldn't it be best to read it as God gave it to you, contradictions and all, rather than try to tell God how He should have written it?

[onewithhim]

Many religions, even those that claim to believe in the Bible, believe sinners not forgiven for their sins go to hell, a place where they are burned forever.
But what does the Bible say?

Revelation 14:9-11 says:

Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name.

"Forever and ever," it says. "No rest," it says.

“The wages sin pays is death.” (Rom. 6:23)

Not hell or a continuation of life in any form. One must decided whether to believe traditions from their religion or the Bible.

Or at least cherry-pick the same verses you do, eh?

You and myth have done exactly that---cherry-picked verses, and not paying attention to the explanations of those verses, which make sense entirely.