I AM HE or I AM?

[MissKate13]

Ego Eimi = I AM
There is no HE. It simply means.I AM.

There are several instances in John where Jesus applies to Himself the same expression that God used at the burning bush: “I AM.” (Exodus 3:14)

(John 8:24). The word “He” is in italics indicating the translators’ insertion. However, in keeping with the theme of John, as well as the immediate context, its insertion is unwarranted and obscures the power of Jesus’ statement. He was, in fact, forthrightly declaring His deity to the hard-hearted Jews by identifying Himself with the same Deity that Moses encountered at the burning bush.

This fact is evident in the context. Three verses later, in John 8:28, Jesus again states I AM. Translators place the “He” in italics.

For a third time, in John 8:58 , Jesus pointedly presses the fact to bring closure to His confrontation: Jesus said to the unbelieving Jews, “Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM.”

The Jews correctly understood that Jesus was making a direct claim to Deity, evidenced by the fact that they prepared to execute Him for the capital crime of blasphemy.

In John 4:19, Jesus stresses the same point to the Samaritan woman. The translators again add “He” following “I AM” Jesus was connecting Himself the the “I AM” of the burning bush.

The apostles were gripped by fear for their lives, seeing Jesus walking on the water toward their boat. “But He said to them, ‘It is I; do not be afraid’” (John 6:20). The English reader would likely never know that the words “It is I” are a translation of the Greek ego eimi, “I am.” Undoubtedly, Jesus was again calling attention to His divinity—as indicated by “I AM. Be not afraid.

”On the occasion when Jesus washed the feet of His disciples in John 13:19, He said to them, “Now I tell you before it comes, that when it does come to pass, you may believe that I am He” (John 13:19). The word He was added. Once again, Jesus was deliberately spotlighting His divinity to His disciples by identifying Himself with the burning bush episode. He intended to emphasize to them that they would realize that He is the great “I AM.”

My personal favorite is John 18:4-5. When the mob came to arrest Jesus, He asks, “Whom are you seeking?’ They answered Him, ‘Jesus of Nazareth.’ Jesus said to them, ‘I am He’” (John 18:4-5). Once again, “He” is in italics.

Notice the reaction. They drew back and fell to the ground. Remember, that these soldiers were not Romans. They were Jewish soldiers sent by the chief priests and Pharisees. They were well aware of the import of the expression “I AM.”

Jesus enlisted the use of “I am” in seven additional instances when He offered descriptions of His divine nature, each prefaced by EGO EIM.
1. “I am the Bread of Life” (6:35).
2. “I am the Light of the world” (8:12).
3. “I am the Door” (10:9).
4. “I am the Good Shepherd” (10:4).
5. “I am the Resurrection and the Life” (11:25).
6. “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life” (14:6).
7. “I am the Vine” (15:5).
In each of these cases, a feature of Jesus’ Person is spotlighted that can only describe deity. No mere human being can rightfully be said to be the Bread of Life, the Light of the world, etc. These glorious affirmations pertain solely to Christ in His divine state.

Insering the word “He” was not only unnecessary, its insertion obscures and softens the force of Jesus’ claim explicitly linking Himself directly to the statement spoken by God to Moses at the burning bush. Indeed, the very heart and core of Christianity is Christ as the divine Son of God. One cannot even be a Christian unless that divinity is orally confessed prior to conversion (Romans 10:9-10).

Unless you believe Jesus when He says EGO EIMI, translated I AM, you will die in your sins.

[tam]

Peace to you,

In case you missed it, I asked a single question in the previous post (at the bottom of the last page, so it would be easy to miss):

viewtopic.php?p=1131306#p1131306

[Replying to MissKate13 in post #47]

Hi Tammy,
I had been struggling to understand your conclusion that comparing Gen 1:3 to John 8:12, 3:19, 1:4 and 12:35-36 shows that the Word had a beginning. So I decided to post all the verses you referenced.

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was without form, and void; and darkness [a]was on the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. 3 Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light.

I have two questions:
In the sequence of creation, which came first, the heavens and the earth, the waters OR THE LIGHT?

Verse 1 is a summary. God created the heavens and the earth.

Verse 2 appears to be a description of what has not yet been formed.

During all of this, God existed. The spiritual realm ("where" God existed) has to have existed.


THEN, God said, "Let there be Light." The first "thing" that God brought into existence.


Could I be reading the verses wrong? It is always possible. But it fits with what I know from my Lord, that He is the Light, that all things were created through Him. Light here is the first thing that God brings into existence.

(Scientifically speaking, light predates matter. The literal earth is matter. The literal water is matter. So one might want to at least consider the possibility that 'water' in Genesis 1:2 is not speaking about physical water.)

Note also that there is no "Let there be" verse preceding "Let there be Light."

Didn’t God create everything through the Word, including the light?

God did create everything through the Word, through His Son (Hebrews 1). Keep reading...

All things would include the light.

Not the Light that is Christ, though. Right?

God did not create the Light who is His Son, through the Son/Word.

On with the comparisons:
John 8:12 Jesus spoke to them again, saying, “I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life.

Do you think Jesus is referring to Himself as physical light like that which was created in the beginning, or is He talking about being a spiritual light to mankind, the source of spiritual truth?

John 3:19
19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Again, is Jesus referring to Himself as physical light as created in the beginning or of Himself being a spiritual light to all men?

Perhaps Genesis 1:3 is a bit more spiritual than you have previously considered it to be?

John 1:4
In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.

Jesus is the source of light., a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path.

John 12:35-36
35Then Jesus told them, “For a little while longer, the Light will be among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you. The one who walks in the darkness does not know where he is going. 36While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of light.”

These are all references to light and darkness; just as Genesis 1:3 is referring to light and darkness. Even day and night are referred to as it being DAY while Christ was with people, but soon to be NIGHT after He was not with them (at least not in person).


"While it is daytime, we must do the works of Him who sent Me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”

John 9:4-6

With Him, we walk in Light.
Without Him, we walk in the dark.


Peace again to you MissKate,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[MissKate13]

Did you read the verses?

Yes M’am. Not only did I read them, I wrote an entire post to you about them.

Wisdom at Proverbs 8 was given birth, brought forth, formed (or instead of formed it might be translated as set up; anointed; poured out; installed).

Translators use a variety of terms in Proverbs 8:24. The Hebrew word is qanah. It is defined as “to get, acquire” (Strong’s 7069)

To grasp how Wisdom can be a person as well as an attribute, just think about how the Life can be both a person (Christ) and a thing; or how a Word can be both a person (Christ) and a thing (words we speak or write or think); or how Truth can be both a person (Christ) or a thing (he spoke 'truth'

I understand the concept, but whether Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a person or an attribute, one cannot deny that Wisdom is everlasting. Wisdom is the speaker in Proverbs, SHE says, “I have been established from everlasting. (Prov 8:23)

Wisdom is identified as a woman (Proverbs 7:4, 8:2-3).

MissKate, do you accept that Christ was the Son of God before a declaration at His resurrection?

Tammy, I’ll have to address your question in the morning. I need to think on the best way to explain.

That is the other possible explanation that people give for that verse. Christ is either the firstborn of all creation and/or the firstborn (preeminent) over all creation.

Regardless of which translation is correct, both statements are true.

One thing I can say with all surety is that Jesus was not created. Though you agree that Jesus was not created, you seem to believe the Word was, or at least you think the Word had a beginning.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Did you read the verses?

Yes M’am. Not only did I read them, I wrote an entire post to you about them.

Yes, thank you!

Wisdom at Proverbs 8 was given birth, brought forth, formed (or instead of formed it might be translated as set up; anointed; poured out; installed).

Translators use a variety of terms in Proverbs 8:24. The Hebrew word is qanah. It is defined as “to get, acquire” (Strong’s 7069)

I believe you mean Proverbs 8:22.

A different word is used at Proverbs 8:24 (translated as given birth or brought forth).

To grasp how Wisdom can be a person as well as an attribute, just think about how the Life can be both a person (Christ) and a thing; or how a Word can be both a person (Christ) and a thing (words we speak or write or think); or how Truth can be both a person (Christ) or a thing (he spoke 'truth'

I understand the concept, but whether Wisdom in Proverbs 8 is a person or an attribute, one cannot deny that Wisdom is everlasting. Wisdom is the speaker in Proverbs, SHE says, “I have been established from everlasting. (Prov 8:23)

How can a person (or thing) be brought forth or given birth and be eternal at the same time?

You only quoted part of Proverbs 8:23.

The full quote (from kjv) is this:

I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

The full quote (from niv) is this:

I was formed long ages ago,
at the very beginning, when the world came to be.

From ESV:

Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth.

Wisdom is identified as a woman (Proverbs 7:4, 8:2-3).

This is still referring to my Lord.

God has both male and female in Him (you can't even argue against that if you are saying wisdom is just an attribute of God, because it would still be a feminine attribute IN God).

Adam had both male and female in Him until God took the woman OUT of Him.

Adam was made in the image of God.

Christ is the image of God.

MissKate, do you accept that Christ was the Son of God before a declaration at His resurrection?

Tammy, I’ll have to address your question in the morning. I need to think on the best way to explain.

Okay... but this is not a hard question Miss Kate. It has a simple straight-foward answer. I don't see how that answer requires an explanation unless a person feels the need to explain how certain verses cannot mean what they say. I could be wrong though.

I will wait for your answer.

That is the other possible explanation that people give for that verse. Christ is either the firstborn of all creation and/or the firstborn (preeminent) over all creation.

Regardless of which translation is correct, both statements are true.

One thing I can say with all surety is that Jesus was not created. Though you agree that Jesus was not created, you seem to believe the Word was, or at least you think the Word had a beginning.

Born, not created.

Jaheshua and the Word are the same person; different body. So when I say Christ was born, I am talking about the whole person... not just when He became flesh for a little while, but the firstborn (meaning having been given birth, brought forth) of all creation.



Peace again to you.

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #44]

Good! I, too, believe what the Bible says. Does the Bible say the Word is eternal?

I didn't find a scripture that says so.

[MissKate13]

THEN, God said, "Let there be Light." The first "thing" that God brought into existence.

Both light and darkness were created. “I form light and create darkness. (Isaiah 45:7)

3 God said, “Let there be light,”and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness He called “night.”

And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

This was the FIRST DAY of creation.

We are told “Through Him all things were made, and without Him nothing was made that has been made.” (John 1:3).

That would include the light and the darkness the first day.

Could I be reading the verses wrong? It is always possible. But it fits with what I know from my Lord, that He is the Light, that all things were created through Him. Light here is the first thing that God brings into existence.

Imho, you are forcing the light, which was created, to be Jesus. Yes, Jesus is the light, but not the light that was created. He is spiritual light, one that provides a “lamp to my feet, and a light to my path (Psalm 119;105).

Note also that there is no "Let there be" verse preceding "Let there be Light."

“Let there be” indicates CREATION. There is “Let there be” before each day, including Day 1 of creation. Isn’t it true that God CREATED the light and darkness on Day 1? Isn’t that what “Let there be” means? God spoke everything into existence, and He did so through His Word, the logos.

John introduces us to the Word (logos) in John 1:1. Logos is a Greek word.The Greeks believed logos was the reason behind all reason. There was never a time when Hod was without reason. There was never a time when the logos was not with God.

Though you have maintained throughout every conversation we’ve had, that Jesus, the Word was not created, you’re actually indirectly suggesting that He was created by everything you post. Think about it. Every time God says “Let there be,” creation is happening. He spoke those words each of the six days of creation.

Big day of cleaning ahead of me so I won’t have much time to post. Just wanted to say Thank you for the great discussion. Hope your day is blessed.

Kate

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 1213 in post #44]

Good! I, too, believe what the Bible says. Does the Bible say the Word is eternal?

I didn't find a scripture that says so.

The Bible doesn’t tell us in the exact words the Word is eternal, but there is ample evidence to show that the Word was with God prior to the beginning of creation.

The Bible shows that in the beginning the Word was with God. (John 1:1)

Not to mention Jesus saying in John 17:5 to His Father, “glorify Me in Your presence with the glory I had with You before the world existed.” Before the world existed is eternity

And then Micah, in 5:2 writes about the one who will come forth out of Bethlehem of whose origins are of old from the days of eternity.

You say Wisdom is Jesus in Proverbs 8, but then deny Jesus to be everlasting when verses 22-23 clearly say “ before His works of old, From everlasting I was established,
from the beginning, before the earth began.

All of your arguments fall flat in the face of the whole of Scripture. There was never a time that the Word was not with God in eternity.

And look who else was with God before creation. The Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit. (Genesis 1:2). Do you also deny the Spirit of God being with God throughout eternity?

[1213]

[Replying to 1213 in post #44]

Good! I, too, believe what the Bible says. Does the Bible say the Word is eternal?

I didn't find a scripture that says so.

The Bible doesn’t tell us in the exact words the Word is eternal, but there is ample evidence to show that the Word was with God prior to the beginning of creation.
...

Being in the beginning is not in my opinion the same as being eternal. But, maybe it is so, I just don't think it is what the Bible tells. To me the problem here is that you seem to make interpretations that are in contradiction with Jesus who tells there is only one true God that is greater than him. If you think Jesus is the God, why do you not believe what he says?

[MissKate13]

[Replying to 1213 in post #57]

The Scripture says, “In the beginning God created…” (Gen 1:1)

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. (John 1:1-3)

The BEGINNING is the BEGINNING of CREATION. That fact is indisputable

The Word existed PRIOR to the BEGINNING.

Micah 5:2
2“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah,
Though you are little among the thousands of Judah,
Yet out of you shall come forth to Me
The One to be Ruler in Israel,
Whose goings forth are from of old,
From [a]everlasting.”

John 17:5
5 And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

[MissKate13]

[Replying to tam in post #53]

Tammy,

You asked the following question:

MissKate, do you accept that Christ was the Son of God before a declaration at His resurrection?

I do not accept that Jesus was the Son of God prior to His incarnation. Son of God is a title, which points to divinity. Son of God in the Old Testament is spoken of only in a future sense. The title was bestowed upon Him when He resurrected from the dead.

Have a great day! Looking forward to reading your responses.

Kate

[tam]

Peace to you MissKate,

Some posts on different points might be getting lost so I am going to start numbering them in bold:

POST 1

[Replying to tam in post #53]

Tammy,

You asked the following question:

MissKate, do you accept that Christ was the Son of God before a declaration at His resurrection?

I do not accept that Jesus was the Son of God prior to His incarnation.

My question was not about the incarnation. My question was about the resurrection.

You used a verse about Christ being declared the Son of God at His resurrection, as if that somehow proved He was not always the Son of God. Why would you use that verse to support your claim?

Son of God is a title, which points to divinity. Son of God in the Old Testament is spoken of only in a future sense. The title was bestowed upon Him when He resurrected from the dead.

See, here you are saying it again, but this is just not true.

God, Himself, says:

"This is my Son, whom I love. Listen to Him." Matt 17:5 (and in various other verses)

Then there is the following exchange between Christ and Peter:

“But what about you?” [Jesus] asked. “Who do you say I am?”

16 Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

17[Jesus] replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven

Have a great day! Looking forward to reading your responses.

Kate

Thank you, and peace again to you.