Smokers need not apply...

[Elijah John]

(Luke 5.31)

And Jesus answering said unto them, They that are in health have no need of a physician; but they that are sick.

One of our Jehovah's Witnesses said that smokers cannot be baptized and become members of the Jehovah's Witnesses.

Even, apparently, smokers who want to quit. They have to have already kicked the habit.

Seems this criteria could be extended to ALL who are struggling with their bad habits.

For debate:

In light of Luke 5.31, how Christian is this exclusionary attitude and requirement?

Should Christian groups welcome of exclude those who are still struggling with their bad habits?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 58 by Peds nurse]

Jesus, was eating with the sinners, and the Pharisee's had a problem with that. What I learn from this particular verse, is that when we just hang around those who know God and have salvation, we are excluding the very people who need his healing. Jesus spent many of his days, preaching the good news to those who were otherwise shunned from society. The forgiveness of sins wasn't just for the "elite" crowd, but offered to everyone.

That's a very interesting comment.
____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Do you consider all outsiders to your faith in need of healing?
  2.As an outsider, I wonder just what I'm supposed to be healed OF?.. Could you elaborate on what is "sick" in me?
  3. What "sin" do you consider me guilty of?
  

____________

[Peds nurse]

[Replying to post 61 by Blastcat]

Hey BC!!

Please elaborate! Interesting in a bad or good way?

[onewithhim]

That's what I have been trying to say. Wouldn't people who are struggling to overcome their addictions do better to be around folks that are not addicted?

Those who aspire to be smoke-free etc.? It doesn't always happen with a snap of the finger decision, but sometimes is a struggle and a process. Or as hoghead1 indicated, those addicted are not "cured" but in recovery.

It can be a lifelong struggle. Why treat them as outcasts if they are trying to overcome?

And what makes you think that people that are struggling with addictions are not allowed to be around Jehovah's Witnesses? Did you read my post?

Many folks always exaggerate when it comes to the Witnesses. I was a smoker for many years and I was very addicted. I didn't want to go to the meetings because I didn't want others to look at me and think that smoking was ok to do. That was my choice. The elders on the other hand were telling me to get to the meetings even if I was struggling with smoking. But they understood my position and didn't force the issue. With prayer, personal study, support from other Witnesses and my desire to go to meetings without misleading others to smoke, I conquered that addiction. Now I can represent my God with a clean conscience. However, if I was to go back and do it again. I see why the elders tried to get me to the meetings even though I was a smoker. It might have been easier. It was me that was acting like I was the first smoker to ever attend a meeting, which is just spiritual sickness talking. Silly, now that I look back on it.

Smoking however is a seriously dangerous thing to do. It kills so many people. It is highly addictive and seductively appealing. The question must be asked, do you as a father reward your children if they choose to pick up and continue a deadly habit? So I agree with the Bible that a person must be held to a certain standard before being allowed to be baptized. That however doesn't mean that a person trying to quit should be avoided. That's not helpful at all and no one avoided me.

Same here. As I already mentioned, I smoked 2 packs a day. Even so, people at the Kingdom Hall welcomed me warmly. No one is looked down on or discouraged in any way when they come to the Hall. As has been said, it's safe to say that most of JWs have had to overcome something seriously unbecoming-for-a-Christian in their lives before getting baptized. Isn't it reasonable to insist that a person would clean up their habits before baptism? I think others here have made good points, and thorough ones.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 24 by 2timothy316]

If you don't mind my asking. Now, I have smoked a pipe everyday, and I mean everyday, since I have been 16. I am now going on 70. I am in reasonable good health for a guy my age. Now if as you say smoking is so dangerous and kills so many people, how did I manage to last this long and stay healthy? I have a sneaking suspicion you may be gong more on media hype here than fact, which, when it comes to drugs, are hard to come by because one is swimming, literally swimming, in a chaotic sea of conflicting, often arbitrary claims from the medical profession, pot being but one prime example. As Hyman Rothman once said, "Doctors, what do they know?"

My brother in law's grandfather died at 77 from lung cancer from smoking a pipe. Diagnosed at age 75. If we are going by what happens to people as you seem to base your logic by. You have 7 years to live.

It is very uncommon for pipe smokers to get and die of lung cancer because they don't inhale. Most lung cancer is associated with cigarette smoking for the very reason that it is inhaled. And oddly enough there are those who have been heavy cigarette smokers all their lives--even into their 80s that don't get lung cancer either. But then smoking is not the only cause of lung cancer, a fact that many tend to overlook.

You are commenting just to have something to do? Or are you suggesting that cigarette smokers, pipe smokers and chewers and sniffers are NOT endangering their health?

People who chew get lip cancer. Pipe smokers endanger their hearts, etc., etc. My grandfather smoked a pipe, and I don't know whether or not he inhaled, but he had a heart attack in his late forties and the doc told him to stop smoking the pipe. Are you familiar with the rates of cancer and other diseases because of using tobacco?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 35 by catnip]

I didn't agree with it either when I read what I read in the Bible. Yet, I had a desire to please God well and that is what ultimately got me to quit. So if a person feels they have no power to beat something irrational, turn to the One that can give power beyond what is normal. "However, we have this treasure in earthen vessels, so that the power beyond what is normal may be God’s and not from us." - 2 Cor 4:7

"Do not be anxious over anything, but in everything by prayer and supplication along with thanksgiving, let your petitions be made known to God; and the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and your mental powers by means of Christ Jesus." - Philippians 4:6, 7

I know exactly what it's like to have an addiction in control. I found help how to regain control and guard against it in the future.

I agree. When I smoked, I would smoke anywhere, even while filling my gas-tank! I smoked in grocery stores, people's homes (whether they smoked or not), the courthouse, at my job sorting mail....and if anyone told me I couldn't smoke I would leave. I was totally irate with anyone who told me to not smoke. There was nothing that could make me want to quit except, finally, the fact that God wants clean people to worship him.


"This is what Jehovah has said, your Repurchaser, the Holy One of Israel: 'I, Jehovah, am your God, the One teaching you to benefit yourself, the One causing you to tread in the way in which you should walk. O if only you would actually pay attention to my commandments! Then your peace would become just like a river, and your righteousness like the waves of the sea.'" (Isaiah 48:17,18)

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 62 by Peds nurse]




[center]Interesting comments
Part One[/center]

Hey BC!!

Please elaborate! Interesting in a bad or good way?

Always in a good way, Peds. I am here to learn. So, what you have to say is very interesting. I might not, however, agree with everything that you think.

But I'm very INTERESTED.. so.. I think that's a very good thing indeed. My INDIFFERENCE would not be such a good thing.

I would be REALLY interested in your answers to my questions!!
( I'm mostly interested in those, right now, you see )

[hoghead1]

[Replying to onewithhim]

I'm saying that medicine is not an exact science and that the medical evidence is inconclusive, as well as also saying our whole philosophy of drugs is a mess and needs to be rethought. As I mentioned in a previous post, when I grew up, the medical profession taught that pot was a horribly dangerous drugs. The media flailed it as something that would turn you into a crazy sex fiend. Now, doctors speak about the great beneficial effects of pot. See, we are dealing with a mass of conflicting results based on questionable research. Take lip cancer. I got sternly lectured by a doctor one time that I ran a great risk of lip cancer because I play French horn. Yes, you do get scares on you lip. And actually, several major brass players have gotten lip cancer. But I don't worry about it. I'm certainly not going to tell kids to drop out of the band because they may get lip cancer.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 67 by hoghead1]




[center]Medical advice:
Part One
[/center]

I'm saying that medicine is not an exact science and that the medical evidence is inconclusive, as well as also saying our whole philosophy of drugs is a mess and needs to be rethought.

"The philosophy of drugs."
That's a bit vague.

As I mentioned in a previous post, when I grew up, the medical profession taught that pot was a horribly dangerous drugs. The media flailed it as something that would turn you into a crazy sex fiend. Now, doctors speak about the great beneficial effects of pot.

Doctors sometimes change their minds when presented with new data.

See, we are dealing with a mass of conflicting results based on questionable research.

I don't at all "see".
It would be interesting to take a look at the questionable research you are talking about.

Take lip cancer. I got sternly lectured by a doctor one time that I ran a great risk of lip cancer because I play French horn. Yes, you do get scares on you lip. And actually, several major brass players have gotten lip cancer. But I don't worry about it. I'm certainly not going to tell kids to drop out of the band because they may get lip cancer.

At least some doctors might know a great deal about cancer. Some musicians might, too. Oddly, if I have concerns about cancer, the first thing that pops into my mind isn't: "Go see a French horn player" !!

____________

Questions:

• 
  1. Why do you say that medicine is not an exact science?
  2.Why do you say that the medical evidence is inconclusive?
  3.What do you mean by the phrase : "philosophy of drugs"?
  4.Why do you say that "our whole philosophy of drugs is a mess and needs to be rethought"?
  5. What "questionable research" are you talking about? Can you cite your sources?
  6. Are you claiming that doctors know less about lip cancer than musicians?
  7. Would you rather have doctors who never changes their mind, or those who are open to revising their ideas when presented with new evidence?
  8. Do you think it abnormal that science deals with a mess of conflicting data?
  

____________

[hoghead1]

[Replying to Blastcat]

Medicine is not an exact science simply because it is difficult to get a firm hand on controlling all the variables so that you can do nice, neat, tidy studies. That's why doctors have changed their minds and will continue to do so and why the literature is full of often conflicting studies. I already mentioned about the big turnaround on pot. Now, some doctors are seeing nicotine as of great medical benefit in curing various neurological disorders from Parkinson's Disease to Schizophrenia. One study found that smokers were far less prone to developing Parkinson's Disease than nonsmokers. Check out sometime Discovery Magazine, March 2014 article titled "Nicotine: The New Wonder Drug?' Incidentally, alcohol, good old booze, is now recognized to help less risk of various diseases and heart problems. I recently had some female clients in rehab who were in fact advised by their doctors to drink wine during their pregnancy.

Our whole cultural philosophy of drugs is messy because it is very conflicted and often very arbitrary. On one hand, you have your strict Puritanical ethics. On the other, much of American culture sanctifies heavy indulgence. Work hard and get as high as you can. Prohibition, yet live it up in the speaks. It's also messy because it can be very arbitrary. Certain drugs are ruled as dangerous, made illegal. Many of the legal, prescribed drugs also have very dangerous side effects. I'm sure you have seen the TV commercials warning about various drugs out there. Heroin is illegal, but Methadone, which is just as dangerous and addictive, is legal. Pot o still listed as a Class I drug by the feds, even though it has no withdrawal symptoms. Xanax is prescribed, yet carries very dangerous withdrawal effects, including seizure and death. Cocaine was once highly recommended by doctors, yet now is illegal, though still used medically. Morphine is highly addictive, but still widely used, as it is one f the most effective pain killers. Most of the addicts from WW 2 were physician-engendered addicts. Many today are addicted to prescription medications. That's what killed Presley. So, yes, I have good reason to think our philosophy is a mess.

[Peds nurse]

Jesus, was eating with the sinners, and the Pharisee's had a problem with that. What I learn from this particular verse, is that when we just hang around those who know God and have salvation, we are excluding the very people who need his healing. Jesus spent many of his days, preaching the good news to those who were otherwise shunned from society. The forgiveness of sins wasn't just for the "elite" crowd, but offered to everyone.

Questions:

• 
  1.

  Do you consider all outsiders to your faith in need of healing?

  
  
  I consider everyone to be worthy of the love that God so graciously offers. I believe that everyone would benefit from the healing power of His love.
  
  2.

  t;]]As an outsider, I wonder just what I'm supposed to be healed OF?.. Could you elaborate on what is "sick" in me?

  
  
  The healing power of the hope that Jesus brings.
  
  3.

  What "sin" do you consider me guilty of?
  

BC, I don't feel qualified to list your sins. I have a difficult time keeping track of my own.
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