clear challenges to the trinity doctrine

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (underlined emphasis added by me.)
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Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
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"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

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Clear Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly and frequently described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
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(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
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Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
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(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
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(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, how could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were? (This not only would not have been allowed, but the Jews would have stoned them to death.)
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(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

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(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

I believe any objective observer would admit that the answers to these simple scriptural challenges (A-H above) should be abundantly, clearly, indisputably available if the trinity (or ‘Jesus is God’) worshipers are correct.

To look for rare instances of unclear, disputed scriptures which have to be interpreted to fit a trinitarian concept (developed after the death of the last Apostle and the completion of Scripture) and convince yourself that they are "proofs" seems to me to be a tragic error.

God has always existed as God and, therefore, His people should have always known who He was and worshiped him in truth.

To believe that God withheld this information from his people (or made it something to be interpreted from unclear references) from the beginning (and throughout all Scriptures) seems to be a tragic error.

[polonius]

101G posted:

#1, his first time in the jurisdiction of Syria, Quirinius was administrator which is rendered Governor also for he took the inventory, or as Luke said, taxes, or the assessment of the people. and then he became Governor of the LAND. to understand this scripture, verse 2 gives us the clue Luke 2:2 "(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) see it? "THIS TAXATION was when he was Govoner of the Land Syria, but the TAXATION he did before was when he was administrator, before he became Governor of the Land. just do your research.

question 1 answered.

RESPONSE: But clearly incorrectly. For reasons of length, let me answer the first part of your reply.

Luke 2 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

" In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R ... s_of_Syria
1 BC – 4 AD Gaius Julius Caesar Vipsanianus

4 – 5 Lucius Volusius Saturninus

6 – 12 Publius Sulpicius Quirinius

12 – 17 Quintus Caecilius Metellus Creticus Silanus

17 – 19 Gnaeus Calpurnius Piso

19 – 21 Gnaeus Sentius Saturninus

22 – 32 Lucius Aelius Lamia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius
The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE[/b].[1] The author of the Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1-5),[2] but Luke places the census within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 10 years earlier[3]in 4 BCE.[4] No satisfactory explanation of the contradiction seems possible on the basis of present knowledge,[5] and most scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.[6]

(Not really wanting to introduce another question until I answer the three) but if Quirinius was conducting a census of Judea, why did Joseph and Mary, citizens and living in Galilee not Judea have to register?

[101G]

101G posted:

#1, his first time in the jurisdiction of Syria, Quirinius was administrator which is rendered Governor also for he took the inventory, or as Luke said, taxes, or the assessment of the people. and then he became Governor of the LAND. to understand this scripture, verse 2 gives us the clue Luke 2:2 "(And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) see it? "THIS TAXATION was when he was Govoner of the Land Syria, but the TAXATION he did before was when he was administrator, before he became Governor of the Land. just do your research.

question 1 answered.

RESPONSE: But clearly incorrectly. For reasons of length, let me answer the first part of your reply.

Luke 2 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

" In those days a decree went out from Emperor Augustus that all the world should be registered. 2 This was the first registration and was taken while Quirinius was governor of Syria."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R ... s_of_Syria
1 BC – 4 AD Gaius Julius Caesar Vipsanianus

4 – 5 Lucius Volusius Saturninus

6 – 12 Publius Sulpicius Quirinius

12 – 17 Quintus Caecilius Metellus Creticus Silanus

17 – 19 Gnaeus Calpurnius Piso

19 – 21 Gnaeus Sentius Saturninus

22 – 32 Lucius Aelius Lamia


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quirinius
The Census of Quirinius was a census of Judea taken by Publius Sulpicius Quirinius, Roman governor of Syria, upon the imposition of direct Roman rule in 6 CE[/b].[1] The author of the Gospel of Luke uses it as the narrative means to establish the birth of Jesus (Luke 2:1-5),[2] but Luke places the census within the reign of Herod the Great, who died 10 years earlier[3]in 4 BCE.[4] No satisfactory explanation of the contradiction seems possible on the basis of present knowledge,[5] and most scholars think that the author of the gospel made a mistake.[6]

(Not really wanting to introduce another question until I answer the three) but if Quirinius was conducting a census of Judea, why did Joseph and Mary, citizens and living in Galilee not Judea have to register?

research this, Luke and Quiriniushttps://infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/luke_and_quirinius.html

or just google "Quirinius governor twice"

[polonius]

We are talking about Matthew's Gospel, not Mark, Luke or John's all of which contradict Matthew.

Matthew Chapter 21, NAB The Entry into Jerusalem

.*1a When they drew near Jerusalem and came to Bethphage* on the Mount of Olives, Jesus sent two disciples,2 saying to them, “Go into the village opposite you, and immediately you will find an ass tethered, and a colt with her.* Untie them and bring them here to me.3 And if anyone should say anything to you, reply, ‘The master has need of them.’ Then he will send them at once.�4* This happened so that what had been spoken through the prophet might be fulfilled:

5b “Say to daughter Zion,
‘Behold, your king comes to you,
meek and riding on an ass,
and on a colt, the foal of a beast of burden.’�

NAB Footnote:
a. 21:4–5 The prophet: this fulfillment citation is actually composed of two distinct Old Testament texts, Is 62:11 (Say to daughter Zion) and Zec 9:9. The ass and the colt are the same animal in the prophecy, mentioned twice in different ways, the common Hebrew literary device of poetic parallelism. That Matthew takes them as two is one of the reasons why some scholars think that he was a Gentile rather than a Jewish Christian who would presumably not make that mistake (see Introduction).

There is no word “and� in the prophecy, only in Matthew.

[101G]

thanks for the reply, but did you not read my post #60. it clear up the, ...... excuse my speech, "asses".

peace in Christ Yeshua.

[polonius]

And finally, lets take a look at this contradiction

“All four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42). Mark, Luke, and John all state that the following day was the Sabbath. John’s account uses this wording: “It was the day of Preparation of the Passover� (John 19:14). The question becomes, since Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation, why had He already observed the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22:7–22; John 13:1–30)?�

https://bible.org/article/time-Jesus-de ... -plausible

In his book Jesus, Interrupted, Bart Ehrman referring to the day and time of Jesus’ death states: “It is impossible [italics supplied] that both Mark’s and John’s accounts are historically accurate, since they contradict each other on the question on when Jesus died.�


Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus Interrupted – Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (and Why We Don’t Know About Them) (Harper One, New York, 2009), 29.

It might also be noted that there is no claim of the institution of any Eucharist in John’s account of the Last Supper as there is in the other three accounts..

Hint: Maybe the Last Supper wasn’t the Passover Meal?

Maybe GINOLJC, should do some more extensive reading and give up his belief in the gospels’ inerrancy.

Let’s give a few other examples of contradictions in the New Testament.

[101G]

And finally, lets take a look at this contradiction

“All four Gospels state that Jesus was crucified on the Day of Preparation (Matthew 27:62; Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:14, 31, 42). Mark, Luke, and John all state that the following day was the Sabbath. John’s account uses this wording: “It was the day of Preparation of the Passover� (John 19:14). The question becomes, since Jesus was killed on the Day of Preparation, why had He already observed the Passover with His disciples (Matthew 26:17–29; Mark 14:12–25; Luke 22:7–22; John 13:1–30)?�

https://bible.org/article/time-Jesus-de ... -plausible

In his book Jesus, Interrupted, Bart Ehrman referring to the day and time of Jesus’ death states: “It is impossible [italics supplied] that both Mark’s and John’s accounts are historically accurate, since they contradict each other on the question on when Jesus died.�


Bart D. Ehrman, Jesus Interrupted – Revealing the Hidden Contradictions in the Bible (and Why We Don’t Know About Them) (Harper One, New York, 2009), 29.

It might also be noted that there is no claim of the institution of any Eucharist in John’s account of the Last Supper as there is in the other three accounts..

Hint: Maybe the Last Supper wasn’t the Passover Meal?

Maybe GINOLJC, should do some more extensive reading and give up his belief in the gospels’ inerrancy.

Let’s give a few other examples of contradictions in the New Testament.

first thanks for the post.

this is too easy, do me a favor go to this link and get an understanding.

"The Two Sabbaths of Passover"
http://thewayofthemessiah.org/tsp.html


my post #60 touched on this.
again no contradiction.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 66 by 101G]

http://thewayofthemessiah.org/tsp.html

^^^This something I had figured out myself thru study, glad to see others have too. Every time I try to explain to a traditional believer, I am met with blank stares. Thanks for the link, I saved it.

[polonius]

this is too easy, do me a favor go to this link and get an understanding.

"The Two Sabbaths of Passover"
http://thewayofthemessiah.org/tsp.html


my post #60 touched on this.
again no contradiction.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

RESPONSE: Let's instead deal with the facts not the writing of someone with fundamentalist tendencies.

First issue. Why doesn't John's account of the last supper have any institution or even mention of the Eucharist?

After you answer that, lets look more closely at other claims of your source and perhaps identify his/her errors.

[101G]

this is too easy, do me a favor go to this link and get an understanding.

"The Two Sabbaths of Passover"
http://thewayofthemessiah.org/tsp.html


my post #60 touched on this.
again no contradiction.

Peace in Christ Yeshua.

RESPONSE: Let's instead deal with the facts not the writing of someone with fundamentalist tendencies.

First issue. Why doesn't John's account of the last supper have any institution or even mention of the Eucharist?

After you answer that, lets look more closely at other claims of your source and perhaps identify his/her errors.

Next so-called contradiction.

Peace in Christ Jesus

[AdHoc]

Yes I believe the bible is the word of God and no other text has more authority.

Excellent! I know of many that do not. Some are even trinitarians.

I have no knowledge of or concern for that creed. I'm not a Catholic so I've only just been introduced to the information.

Though you're not Catholic, the trinity doctrine stems from that religion. They take full credit for it and they seem to take a lot of pride in establishing that doctrine. If you want to understand the truth of your doctrine better, perhaps you could learn more about it's origin.

I may not be right but feel like you might be trying to make a slightly logically flawed argument here...

"The trinity belief is a Catholic belief, the Catholic religion is wrong therefore the trinity belief is wrong"

If I'm wrong about this please tell me what your point is.

Catholics probably have lots of beliefs that I share and lots that I don't. I really don't care beyond my natural curiosity.
the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end

Jesus said "I am the resurrection and the life whoever believes in Me will live even if he dies"

Yes he did and he is correct. Is this implying that Jesus is God? Not according to the Bible. 1 Cor 15:21 says, "For since death came through a man, resurrection of the dead also comes through a man." Note, does it call Jesus God? No, it says through a man.

Paul says we see through a glass darkly but someday we will know as we are known.

It seems you are choosing dark glasses. At the top of this post you said there is no other higher authority on earth than the Bible. Explain please what you mean. Are you saying that Paul might have been wrong because looking through a dark glass when he said, resurrection comes through a man? Do we believe that life comes through the death of a man or not?

What I'm saying is that scripture says we don't know everything yet but someday we will.

Now i've got you arguing with the scriptures as well. We make a fine pair you and I.

I don't argue with scripture. I argue with teaching traditions. Scripture is always correct. How we read it is where the error occurs. Eisegesis or 'lead into' scripture is to put one's own ideals before reading what the scripture says. I person making a claim and then going to the Bible to justify themselves is terribly flawed. It should be the other way around.

"Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way, The earliest of his achievements of long ago. From ancient times I was installed, From the start, from times earlier than the earth...Then I was beside him as a master worker. I was the one he was especially fond of day by day; I rejoiced before him all the time; I rejoiced over his habitable earth, And I was especially fond of the sons of men." Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30, 31

Who do you think this scripture is speaking of?

Wisdom personified.

The defintion of personified: "represented (a quality or concept) by a figure in human form." Wisdom is being personified by whom in Proverbs 8:22, 23, 30, 31?

I don't see where it applyies to anyone except to an intrinsic quality.

Since I've answered your questions will you answer me and tell me who the Good Shepherd is?

So much to read even sometimes I miss an answer. I answered this question in post 42.
viewtopic.php?p=925566#925566 [/quote]
I asked "Who is the Good Shepherd?"

And you answered...

"The good shepherd is not the same as the good teacher.
There are two different words for the term 'good' in Greek.

John 10:11 uses 'kalos' shepherd meaning "beautiful, good, worthy"
http://biblehub.com/greek/2570.htm

Yet in Luke:18:19 the Greek word 'agathos' is used. Which means, "intrinsically good". God is naturally Good or the essence of good. and Jesus didn't describe himself this way. The Rabbis of Jesus' days did call themselves 'agathos' teachers. That title was apparently improper.
http://biblehub.com/greek/18.htm"

Who is the Good Shepherd?

Also I'm interested to know who the First and the Last is.

The Bible tells us the answer.

"This is what Jehovah says, The King of Israel and his Repurchaser, Jehovah of armies: ‘I am the first and I am the last. There is no God but me." - Isaiah 44:6.

"Listen to me, O Jacob, and Israel, whom I have called. I am the same One. I am the first; I am also the last." - Isaiah 48:12

Yes the Bible tells us the answer so the First and the Last is Jehovah and there is no God but Jehovah.

And in Revelation 22:13 who is "the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end"?