The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 55 by Checkpoint]

The meaning of verse 5 focuses on the rest of the dead (other than the co-rulers with Christ) "coming to life" when the thousand years were ended. What does "coming to
life" actually mean? Does it mean that the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years? Or does it mean that these dead have passed the test, if you will, of accepting the truth about God and Christ during the Millennial Reign, and then living according to the "new scrolls" that were opened when Armageddon was over (Rev.20:12), then making themselves eligible for everlasting life? The fact that these formerly dead people have now proven their faithfulness to God and Christ makes them approved to live forever---thus "coming to life".....the real life, the life that will never end.

This makes the most sense to me, and it's not just because someone said that is what verse 5 means.

Thank you for further explaining what makes the most sense to you, onewithhim.

However, that explanation is only possible when what the verse says is directly contradicted.

The verse says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over", doesn't it?

What did you say?

"that these dead have passed the test...during the Millennial Reign", didn't you?

They cannot do that while they remain dead until that reign is over.

Why on earth do I have to spell that out to you?

Where are you, onewithhim?

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

I do see your point, Pinseeker, but I also do disagree with it.

Why?

Because that Revelation 20 passage itself spells out what is "second" in time sequence.

It is "the second death".

Only in Revelation are the terms "first resurrection" and "second death" used.

The challenge for us is to determine what exactly they are used for, just what they intend to convey, in that context.

Outside of Revelation there is only one resurrection, not two or more.

It consists of both the saved and the lost; of both believers and unbelievers.

Anyway, think about what I am saying.

Grace and peace.

I don't think you do see my point, Checkpoint. No disrespect intended, of course. I think it would be of benefit to restate to you what I said to tam in post 30. To Tam, I wrote:

• The Revelation passage you cite above (chapter 20)...
  
  I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
  
  ... specifically the part you bolded, should be read to say that those coming to life spiritually and reigning with Christ is happening over the thousand-year period. And again, it's not literally a thousand years, but the entire church age (as 1000 is a number symbolizing completeness). In other words, the dead came to life... were spiritually reborn... over the thousand-year period -- each one at some particular point during the thousand-year period -- and reigned with Christ during that time -- each one from the point that he/she came to life to the end of the thousand-year period; this is a direct reference to the point at which sinners were born again and became believers in Christ. This is what Paul describes in Ephesians 2:4-6...
  
  "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."
  
  The first resurrection is spiritual in nature -- we become alive in Christ -- and the second resurrection is physical -- the physical rejoins the spiritual at the time of Christ's return. This is exactly what Paul is saying in the 1st Thessalonians 4 passage you cite above; he's reassuring the Thessalonicans that if they are still alive at the time of Christ's return, they will not physically die but rather be caught up along with those who have been physically resurrected and will be with the Lord Jesus forever.
  
  Finally, the second resurrection is a general one; everyone is included... this is what that parenthetical expression in the Revelation passage you cited above -- "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended" -- is saying. Yes, it can be confusing if one misreads it; John is talking about the first resurrection in what you bolded above, but in that parenthetical expression in between, he refers to the second resurrection.
  
  At any rate, then comes the Judgment, where the wheat is separated from the tares, or the sheep from the goats, and, in the words of Jesus in Matthew 25, He says to the ones on His right (the wheat; His sheep; believers):
  
  "Well done, good and faithful servant..." and "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..."
  
  And then to the ones on His left (the tares; goats; unbelievers):
  
  "You wicked, lazy servant..." and "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels..."

So, I think you possibly may be understanding incorrectly that I am saying there are two (or more?) physical resurrections. This is not the case. Again, the first resurrection is spiritual, not physical, in nature. It is in this life, when, as Peter says, we are born again to a living hope (1 Peter 1), or Paul, when he says "But God...made us alive together with Christ... and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The second resurrection is physical in nature, and is a general resurrection of all the dead, believer and unbeliever, and subsequently, Jesus executes the Judgment.

I think the problem is that several people here (maybe not you, but possibly) are reading Revelation 20 as one big event. It's not that at all. Verses 1-7 describe the church age -- from the time of Jesus's ascension to the time He returns (which we are in the midst of now) -- and 8-20 are together sort of an event 2A and 2B, the latter of which is the Judgement, after which unbelievers suffer the second death (the first being their physical passing from this life).

Thank you for that, Pinseeker.

We agree on this issue, but just have a slightly different way of expressing it at times.

I hadn't read post 30 so your repeat is appreciated .

Grace and peace.

[PinSeeker]

Grace and peace.

Dude. Same to you but more of it!

The Lord be with you, brother.

[PinSeeker]

. . . we'll be like him, physical as can be.

Then we will have gained nothing.

Full redemption and glorification -- not just spiritual but physical also -- is "nothing" to you? Hm. Well, okay, to each his own, I guess...

We're physical now!

Yes, we are, but only spiritually redeemed, and our righteousness and glory are in Christ. One day we will be truly like Him.

[PinSeeker]

If there are people who go to heaven, which there are, they are made alive in a SPIRIT body. No physical body can survive in heaven, the spirit world (I Corinthians 15: 50).

Right now, that's correct. Right now. But at the resurrection, no.

You say that they are returned to a physical body to be "redeemed and glorified." Aren't they ALREADY redeemed and glorified, once they go to heaven?

No, that's not what I said; you misunderstood, I guess. Yes, they are, but their bodies still await that.

There is no reason whatsoever for them to return to their physical life on Earth.

Oh, but there is. Heaven will actually come down to earth, as I said; earth and heaven will be one. This is the New Jerusalem, the new heavens and the new earth. It will be as physical as can be. Therefore the need for our physical bodies.

Another point I'd like to make....Jesus did not walk the earth, after his resurrection, in the physical body that he had when he died.

I don't think it would be a good idea to say that to Mary Magdelene or the other Mary when you meet those two ladies (Matthew 28:8-10)... or to the two men He spoke to on the road to Emmaus and then had dinner with that evening (Luke 24:13-35) when you meet them... or to Thomas when you meet him (John 20:24-29)... or to any of the other disciples (Luke 24:36-43) when you meet them... or to the other 500+ witnessess (1 Corinthians 15:6) when you meet them... They'd probably get a good -- loving, of course -- laugh.

If he had taken back that physical body, he would have taken back his SACRIFICE, and we would all still be in our sins.

This statement makes no sense at all...

The Scriptures say that he came to life as a spirit person.

• "It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)
  
  "Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the SPIRIT." (I Peter 3:18)

The contrast in 1 Corinthians 15 is between the spiritual and the natural/unspritual, not the a spiritual body and a physical body. Therefore, in verse 45, he does not mean an immaterial body but a body animated and empowered by the Holy Spirit.

In 1 Peter 3:18, "in the flesh" means in the visible, physical realm in whichg Jesus was crucified and "in the spirit" means in the invisible, spiritual realm where Christ now lives. This gels perfectly with what Paul says in Ephesians 2:4-6, that we are even now -- spiritually speaking -- saved by grace and thus raised up with Him and seated with Him and in Him in the heavenly places.

If you'll recall....Mary didn't recognize him when she went to see where he had lain in the tomb and he appeared to her, and the disciples he encountered on the road to Emmaus did not recognize him either until he spoke about many things having to do with himself, the Christ.

They were kept from recognizing Him at first, sure. But they eventually did; this happens to us from time to time, too, in our daily lives.

He did not have the same body he died with, and he had to materialize a physical body after his resurrection, just as the angels of ancient times did when they appeared to various ones.

Y-y-y-y-y-y-y-y-yeah, I, um, disagree. Grace and peace to you.

[myth-one.com]

. . . we'll be like him, physical as can be.

Then we will have gained nothing.

We're physical now!

One day we will be truly like Him.

Then we will not be physical.

[tam]

Peace to you!


Before I respond to your post to me, Pinseeker, I am just going to also copy out what you said to myth-one:

LOL! Yes, Satan is bound, in that He can no longer "deceive the nations," which means to stop the spread of the Gospel. He cannot stop folks from becoming Christians. In this way he is bound.

I am sorry, but this is inaccurate. You place "deceive the nations" in brackets, and then assign it a meaning other than what is stated. Just as many other people and religions do whenever the text conflicts with their chosen theology. But these words mean what they say, and the Adversary is absolutely deceiving the nations even today.

I share some support to that in post 11:

viewtopic.php?p=965083#965083


Also, from the verses 1-3, during the thousand years, the Adversary is bound in the Abyss. He is bound and sealed in the Abyss, before the thousand years begin. He cannot be active at all in the world if he is bound and sealed in the abyss.


That has not yet happened. Therefore, the thousand years have not yet begun. Therefore, the first resurrection cannot yet have occurred.



From your post to me:

The Revelation passage you cite above (chapter 20)...

• I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

... specifically the part you bolded, should be read to say that those coming to life spiritually and reigning with Christ is happening over the thousand-year period.

1 - It happens all at once, at the beginning of the thousand years; otherwise they could not have reigned with Christ FOR a thousand years.




2 - We are not yet reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.

Christ promises that we will reign with Him in His Kingdom (providing we remain in Him and endure):

To the apostles Christ said:

Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, Matthew 19:28


This is referring to when Christ returns. (Matthew 25:31)


He also makes these promises to His Church (in various places that His Church, His Bride, might be):


To the one who is victorious and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations— 27 that one ‘will rule them with an iron scepter and will dash them to pieces like pottery’—just as I have received authority from my Father. Rev 2:26, 27


I will give... not I have given.


To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne. Rev 3:21


Again, I will give... not I have given.



Paul also spoke thus:

if we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;


IF we endure, we WILL reign with Him.



3 - Some of those John saw had been beheaded (had died) for their testimony to Christ and because of the Word of God.

And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.


If what you are saying were true Pinseeker (that once we are Christian we have taken part in the first resurrection)... then how are these ones described as coming to life after they are 'beheaded' for giving testimony to Christ and because of the Word of God?




There is more that could be addressed, but perhaps another post.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[PinSeeker]

Before I respond to your post to me, Pinseeker, I am just going to also copy out what you said to myth-one:

LOL! Yes, Satan is bound, in that He can no longer "deceive the nations," which means to stop the spread of the Gospel. He cannot stop folks from becoming Christians. In this way he is bound.

I am sorry, but this is inaccurate.

In your opinion.

You place "deceive the nations" in brackets, and then assign it a meaning other than what is stated.

This is your opinion, too. I respect it, but it is what it is.

But these words mean what they say...

Absolutely, they do.

...the Adversary is absolutely deceiving the nations even today.

He's trying to, but can't, as it relates to the Gospel. He's not able to stop the spread of the Gospel. Sure, he can deceive folks as far as acting in ways that become followers of Christ and glorifying God, and that's what he does, with is fiery darts. But he cannot stop the spread of the Gospel and thus people from becoming Christians.

He cannot be active at all in the world if he is bound and sealed in the abyss. That has not yet happened.

This again is opinion. Mine is that the New Testament affirms that Jesus's first coming has already bound Satan. Actually, Jesus Himself does this in Matthew 12 when He rebukes the Pharisees in verses 22-29. Jesus was able to expel demons because He had bound Satan, the "strong man." Beginning with Jesus's victory over Satan duiring the temptation in the wilderness (Matthew 4), Jesus demonstrated that Satan was powerless to prevent Him from proclaiming the good news of the kingdom and demonstrating the reality of its presence through His work and His words. "Satan's house" in that passage represents the sinful world over which, until the coming of Christ, he had such power. Jesus has come to plunder his house and rescue people for the kingdom of God (which is what Paul says in Colossians 1:13 -- "He (God) has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in Whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins").

Therefore, the thousand years have not yet begun.

And I say they have.

Therefore, the first resurrection cannot yet have occurred.

Well, again, the first resurrection is ongoing; people are being converted to Christ and born again every day. Spiritually -- but not physically, yet -- they are reigning with Christ (seated with Him in the heavenly places [Ephesians 2:6]), and this will continue until the end of the age -- the millennium referred to in Revelation 20 -- until the fullness of the Gentiles are brought in and then the partial hardening on the nation of Israel is removed; in this way all of Israel will be saved (Romans 11). Again, Revelation is not to be read as "all are resurrected and THEN they ALL reign with Christ from the beginning of the millennium to the end (that is a misreading), but rather this whole process -- people being born again and ruling with Christ is progressive and lasts through the millenium (the fullness of the church age).

It happens all at once, at the beginning of the thousand years; otherwise they could not have reigned with Christ FOR a thousand years.

See above. You're misunderstanding Revelation 20. No, the process of people coming to Christ and reigning with Him is progressive. He is the only one ruling for the full period; others are coming to join Him as the period progresses.

We are not yet reigning with Christ in His Kingdom.

Physically, that's correct, I agree. But spiritually, we are seated with Him -- in His power -- in the heavenly places. When the kingdom is fully ushered in by Jesus on His return, then we will reign with Him fully.

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

And to you also. Grace and peace to you.

[PinSeeker]

Then we will not be physical.

Oh, but we will.

[myth-one.com]

Then we will not be physical.

Oh, but we will.

Then we will die again in 120 years or less:

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be a hundred and twenty years. (Genesis 6:3)