A belief of the Jehovah Witnesses?

[polonius]

Garbe, Detlef (2008). Between Resistance and Martyrdom: Jehovah's Witnesses in the Third Reich. University of Wisconsin Press. pp. 37, 38. ISBN 0-299-20794-3.

" In their opinion, only people who have accepted Jehovah and subsequently submit to his requirements will survive Armageddon and enter into the New World ... Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that a person confessing to worship God has to be associated with the true Christian denomination. Since they claim to be the only true religious denomination, they also claim to have the only means for salvation."

Is this a belief that all Jehovah Witnesses hold?

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 69 by tam]

I've never read a statement saying that they cannot, have you?



W

Is there a reason you will not simply answer my questions?



Peace again to you.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 71 by tam]

Is there a reason why you dont produce evidence to support your claim or gracefully retract it? If you've read somewhere in the Watchtower that nobody who is not a Jehovahs Witness will go to heaven (or be in paradise) produce it!

The WTS teaches that ...in order to survive Armageddon, one has to be a JW (in good standing). Again, with some possible exceptions.

Emphasis MINE




Otherwise we are done talking.



JW

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 71 by tam]

Is there a reason why you dont produce evidence to support your claim or gracefully retract it?


JW

I did produce the evidence to support my claim (post 33 and 35). The Grand Climax book states that there is no evidence that anyone other than the 144 000 and the Great Crowd survives Armageddon. Post 35 quotes information from your religion stating that the Great Crowd is part of your religion. You did not address these points but simply repeated a PART of what the WTS teaches (leaving out the rest).

I am simply following those (and other) teachings of the WTS to their natural conclusion.



Will you now answer the questions that I asked?




And does the WTS (WatchTower Society) teach that non-jws today can be part of the 144 000 (without joining or supporting the JW religion)? Does the WTS teach that non-jws today can be part of the Great Crowd (without joining or supporting the JW religion)?




Peace again to you.

[tam]

Peace again to you,


The following is not a claim I made (it is a strawman; a distraction).

If you've read somewhere in the Watchtower that nobody who is not a Jehovahs Witness will go to heaven (or be in paradise) produce it!

[tam]

Peace to you!

Peace to you,

Peace to you,

Not a JW here, but I think the misunderstanding (or obfuscation) is coming in under the word 'saved'.


1 - The WTS teaches that at the time of Armageddon (which the WTS teaches can occur any time now), all non-JW's who are alive on the earth (with some possible exceptions) will be killed. In order to survive Armageddon, one has to be a JW (in good standing). Again, with some possible exceptions.



2 - The WTS also teaches that everyone who has died before Armageddon occurs, will be resurrected. These ones get a second chance, so to speak, to live on the earth and not die.


The WTS teaching from when I did a bible study with them (more than a decade ago), was that the people who die at/during Armageddon do not get a resurrection (theirs is a permanent death).





Hope that makes it more clear.


Peace again to you!

Number one is not true. There are many who have not heard the Truth, and those people will not die at Armageddon. It is the heart condition that Jehovah looks at. People who don't have a clue about the Truth will have a chance to learn, during Christ's Millennial Rule.

Therefore those people - the people who have never heard 'the truth' - would be among the possible exceptions that I mentioned in number one. The articles that I quoted do not support this exception, but this is what most jws I have spoken to say they believe.




Peace again to you.

Huh.


I know that most jws (that I have spoken to) believe as you do (your words above that I bolded). But I just came across an article in your literature that states the opposite of what you said. I suppose I should not have been surprised (but I was a little).


Before proceeding I want to make clear that the WTS teaching on Armageddon (as well as their teaching about the sheep and the goats) is false. I am NOT quoting it as support for it. I think that was understood from my previous posts, but I needed to make sure that is clear here, because what I am about to quote might be quite hard for some to see and I do not want you to lose hope - place your faith and your hope in JAH and in His Son Jaheshua... not in men or religion. (For my part, I shared on another thread what I received from my Lord about the sheep and the goats; the people of the nations. My Lord's teaching is from great love and mercy. viewtopic.php?p=731804#731804)


Moving on to the WTS (erroneous) teaching, speaking about the judgment of the sheep and the goats, the WTS states:

This judgment period will be completed during this generation, and when the execution of judgment starts at Armageddon the destinies of all persons then living will have been fixed. Some become perturbed over this, and speculate on the existence of a third class not separated into sheep and goat categories, and which will be resurrected in the millennium for its judgment period. Into this third class they would put all babes and children, and any adults not reached by the Kingdom message by the time Armageddon strikes. Such speculators can produce no solid Scriptural support for their theory. It seems to be spawned either by human sentiment over creature salvation or by a negative, defeatist attitude toward a successful completion of the preaching work. Or by both.

In harmony with the illustration of the sheep and goats, Ezekiel 9:4-6 (AT) shows but two classes, those marked for preservation and the unmarked ones appointed to destruction. And in this prophetic picture of Armageddon’s slaughter note that the executional forces do not spare individuals on the grounds of age or sex: “Slay without mercy or pity. Old men, young men and maidens, little children and women—strike them all dead! But touch no one on whom is the mark.� Note that in this picture the ones preserved are those who did “sigh and cry for all the abominations� done in the land in reproach of Jehovah’s true worship. In the parable of sheep and goats the ones preserved showed favor toward Christ’s brothers. In both cases the ones destroyed were those who remained indifferent or neutral as well as opposers. Christ Jesus, during the judgment period when he was on earth, laid down the principle for such times: “He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters.� (Matt. 12:30, NW) No room remains for a third class.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/195 ... ddon&p=par




"Come out of her my people!"

“Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29 Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.�





May anyone who wishes be given ears to hear so as to hear the truth of this (and all matters) from THE Truth: Christ Jaheshua. May anyone who wishes and anyone who thirsts, as the Spirit and the Bride say to you, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"




May you have peace, as Christ gives peace,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy

[JehovahsWitness]

I did produce the evidence to support my claim (post 33 and 35). .

No you did not. You quoted a passage that didn't even mention the words Jehovahs Witnesses and then put your own spin on it. I am not not interested in twisted anti-Witness propaganda thank you very much nor in strawman interpretations.

Jehovahs Witnesses accept that those that don' t agree with our teachings are free not to join us, I do hope, however you can still see your way to having a pleasant evening,


JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Matthew S Islam]

Checkpoint"]

[Replying to post 61 by Matthew S]

I agree with your post, though your last sentence escapes my understanding. Could you elaborate on your comment about Paul?

Following the untimely crucifixion of the Messiah, the apostle Paul claimed to receive a vision and took on the initiative to preach the "Gospel of Jesus Christ". The "Gospel" he preached was supposedly Divine revelation and it seeked to fill the void in the absence of the Messiah.

Some New Testament scholars hold the view that the early Christians exagerrated/expanded on the stories of Jesus partially to strengthen the case of the crucified Messiah. Paul was the earliest author who was included in the New Testament and you could easily notice the difference between how he describes Jesus in comparison to the synoptics. The "development" could also be observed in how Paul uses the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" to promote lawlessness and contradict the worldly teachings of Christ and the actions of his Disciples.

Not so.

The crucifixion was not untimely but in God's time, first forecast in Genesis 3:15.

I get why you would say this due to your theology. The reason why I project it as untimely is because it was not the expected role of the Messiah, nor what is what he initially preached. It is my contention that Jesus did not know that the Jews were going to reject and murder him prior to it happenning. Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of God and the Jews were theoreatically expected to accept his complete authority over their affairs.

No, the Messiah was not absent, but right there to do all his Father had intended.

The Messiah was rejected & crucified as opposed to being annointed and establishing the Messianic Kingdom of God. Jesus did not preach the "post-crucifiion theology" in the manner he would have had there been the oppertunity. Hence why Paul's claim to prophecy and his elaboration on the implications of Jesus' crucifixion are so valuable to latter Christians.

Furthermore, Paul did not "promote lawlessness and contradict the worldly teachings of Jesus Christ".

Jesus observed the Law and explicitly commanded his followers to do the same. This is not a contraversial statement and there's no need to quote the Biblical references to substantiate it. Paul obviously contradicted this by teaching that the Law was no longer necessary due to the Messiah's crucifiion. Had this been the worldly teachings of Jesus - or, even if we take it a step further and say that had Jesus even known that he was going to be crucified - then he wouldn't have commanded his followers to observe the law in such a demanding and forceful manner. Rather, he should have told them that the law cannot make you right with God, and that his purpose as the Messiah was to die and abrogate its obligation.

The Disciples and the early Jewish Christians explicitly repremanded Paul for his views on the law. This definitvely proves that they differed with Paul concerning theology (i.e. the implications of Jesus' "death"), and they did not view him as an authority who they were religiously obliged to follow. Latter Christians are practically forced to be pro-Pauline due to his writings being included in the cannon and the subsequent influence that had on Christian history. I'm sure many Christians would have been more objective had there been an alternative option available to them.

[JehovahsWitness]

The Disciples and the early Jewish Christians explicitly repremanded Paul for his views on the law. This definitvely proves that they differed with Paul concerning theology (i.e. the implications of Jesus' "death"), and they did not view him as an authority who they're religiously obliged to follow. Latter Christians are practically forced to be pro-Pauline due to his writings being included in the cannon and major influence over Christian history. I'm sure many Christians would have been more objective had there been another alternative option available to them.

I cant see what this has got to do with the OP. What are you implying about Jehovah's Witnesses here? We accept everything in the bible including the writings including the books written are you trying to say we can't gain salvation becauss we accept all the bible?!



JW

[Matthew S Islam]

The Disciples and the early Jewish Christians explicitly repremanded Paul for his views on the law. This definitvely proves that they differed with Paul concerning theology (i.e. the implications of Jesus' "death"), and they did not view him as an authority who they're religiously obliged to follow. Latter Christians are practically forced to be pro-Pauline due to his writings being included in the cannon and major influence over Christian history. I'm sure many Christians would have been more objective had there been another alternative option available to them.

I cant see what this has got to do with the OP. What are you implying about Jehovahs Witnesses here?

You're right, and I was questioning whether or not I should even respond. I'll refrain from further off-topic back-and-forths within this thread.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 61 by Matthew S]

I agree with your post, though your last sentence escapes my understanding. Could you elaborate on your comment about Paul?

Following the untimely crucifixion of the Messiah, the apostle Paul claimed to receive a vision and took on the initiative to preach the "Gospel of Jesus Christ". The "Gospel" he preached was supposedly Divine revelation and it seeked to fill the void in the absence of the Messiah.

Some New Testament scholars hold the view that the early Christians exagerrated/expanded on the stories of Jesus partially to strengthen the case of the crucified Messiah. Paul was the earliest author who was included in the New Testament and you could easily notice the difference between how he describes Jesus in comparison to the synoptics. The "development" could also be observed in how Paul uses the "Gospel of Jesus Christ" to promote lawlessness and contradict the worldly teachings of Christ and the actions of his Disciples.

I don't believe at all that Paul promoted lawlessness (how do you see that?), and he certainly didn't contradict what Jesus taught.

The Messiah was described throughout the Old Testament, and his death clearly outlined in the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, where Isaiah lamented the death of the suffering servant, the Messiah, who would die for Israel's sins. The Jewish religious leaders were far from a satisfactory relationship with God, and did not teach the people what God wanted them to teach. They pushed their own rules and traditions. For Pete's Sake, the Messiah was prophesied to come in an exact year---that can be understood by scrutinizing Daniel chapter 9! Surely the learned men of the Pharisees could see that. But they rejected it all. Then they tried to shut Jesus up and ended up killing him.

Jesus told the people that they must follow the Law up to the point where he died. After he died, the Law was not in force any more because, as he had said, he came to FULFILL the Law. When something is fulfilled, it no longer is used or followed. Paul understood that and reiterated the fact throughout his letters.


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