Do animals have spirit?

[Inquirer]

I have two Italian Greyhounds, here's a picture of them:

Are these animals just lumps of matter or is there something more to them? Is it only people that are not lumps of matter?

[William]

I agree, and specifically there is scripture stating that animals do have spirit:

Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?

This is clearly revealing that animals have a spirit, mysterious and profound though that idea is to us.

It seems clear enough that whoever wrote Ecclesiastics could - in today's world - be seen as someone who believes in the materialist doctrine of emergence theory.

In taking a portion of that script, it appears that the author is endorsing the idea that animals 'have spirits' [another way of saying that 'spirits occupy animal forms /avatars] but when one reads the whole script wrapped around that portion, rather than just the potion you quoted, it becomes very obvious the author believes that neither humans nor animals have spirits and furthermore, see humans and animals as similar beasts.

Author of Ecclesiastes: I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts. For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity. All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth? Wherefore I perceive that there is nothing better, than that a man should rejoice in his own works; for that is his portion: for who shall bring him to see what shall be after him?

That part in bold, is something which a lot of materialists utter, in their own ways - which simply means "stop worrying about what may or may not happen after death. Just live the life you have."
When we read words attributed to Jesus, we see that Jesus appears to be of the opposing persuasion, in that we should all be concerned about how we live our lives because death is not our end.

[JoeyKnothead]

The only evidence for your assertion that I can see is the desire for a single, unified theology across the various biblical authors.

So?! What's wrong with that? As long as no contextual, lexical or grammatical principles being violated, there is nothing problematic in favoring interpretations that harmonize rather than create artificial conflict.

What if that conflict ain't artificial?

[Kylie]

So why can't we detect this spirit? We can, after all, detect electricity.

Good question!




The answer is we can; to detect means to discern something exists. Like a the gravitational pull of an unseen star or planet, testifies to its existence, the observable difference between what is alive and what is not indicates the existence of a yet unquantifiable force which we humans have yet to create. Or to return to our analogy, even if we couldnt measure or understand electricity, obseving what happens when a computer is plugged into a supply source as opposed to a perfectly built computer thatnis not, would be enough for us to discen there is something in the cord attached to the wall that makes the equipment function.

PSALMS 36:9 - New International Version

For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light

.

The bible indicates this spirit can be thought of as the force of life (See Psalms 36:9) ; while it cannot at present be measured by present scientific means, its presence can be deduced by informed observation.

Seems to me that you are just assuming that this stuff exists, and interpreting what you can see in a way to support it. ...

Some assumptions are so firmly based on observable truths and reliable testimony they can be accepted as truth. This is one of them.

Perhaps if would help to think of the biblical "breath of life" as life itself. What is life? Even if it is hard to define and impossible to measure, do you doubt it exists? Of course not! life is an observable reality expressed through every living thing. The biblical language is a little different but it just names what everyone, atheist or believer, knows exists...LIFE.

The bible just goes one step further by indicating : "we know living things have "life" ... what is the SOURCE of this thing we call "life"?

Now you are introducing something new. It's not soul and it's not spirit, at least, not by the definitions you provided.

I would say that life is an emergent property when you have cells powered by energy. It's not a separate thing, it's just the natural result. It's like how if you make a point on a piece of paper, and then choose some arbitrary distance and mark all the points that are this arbitrary distance away from your original point, you'll end up with a circle. There's no separate circleness creator, it's just a result of the previous processes working together.

[Kylie]

If spirit is to people as electricity is to computers, the spirit is nothing more than the energy we get from the food we eat.

See post #19

The problem is that you are very vague in that post. You said:

"No we are not animated by food, we are energized by it."

You do not define what "animated" means and you do not define what "energized" means.

You also said:

"Biblically, the spirit is that which causes us to live."

However, based on the definitions you gave earlier, this is saying nothing more than, "Living causes us to live." This is meaningless, as it is saying the end result is a cause of the end result.

[JehovahsWitness]

Some assumptions are so firmly based on observable truths and reliable testimony they can be accepted as truth. This is one of them.

Perhaps if would help to think of the biblical "breath of life" as life itself. What is life? Even if it is hard to define and impossible to measure, do you doubt it exists? Of course not! life is an observable reality expressed through every living thing. The biblical language is a little different but it just names what everyone, atheist or believer, knows exists...LIFE.

The bible just goes one step further by indicating : "we know living things have "life" ... what is the SOURCE of this thing we call "life"?

Now you are introducing something new. It's not soul and it's not spirit, at least, not by the definitions you provided.

No, I am just trying to help you understand in the simpliste terms I can since you expressed confusion earlier. The spirit (as in the breath of life ) is the force of life, the power that animates all living things. If you are alive you have this (force of ) life: so you can discern its presence by the very fact that you live. Thus life itself (rather than food) becomes, or all intents and purposes, synonymous with spirit (as used for living things).

You also said: "Biblically, the spirit is that which causes us to live."

this is saying nothing more than, "Living causes us to live." This is meaningless, as it is saying the end result is a cause of the end result.

Yes, because the bible does not (so we cannot) defined spirit beyond what it does and where it comes from. Note the poetic parallelism in the earlier mentioned Psalm : "With you is the source of life; By your light we can see light" (NWT)

I would say that life is an emergent property when you have cells powered by energy.

Fair enough. You see that energy you just mentioned ? ... biblically, God's spirit is the source of that.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

"No we are not animated by food, we are energized by it."

You do not define what "animated" means and you do not define what "energized" means

Seriously? You dont know the difference between food giving you life and food keeping you alive?


NB : I always take it my readers have access to a dictionary when I am using words in their convention sense

[onewithhim]

So why can't we detect this spirit? We can, after all, detect electricity.

Good question!




The answer is we can; to detect means to discern something exists. Like a the gravitational pull of an unseen star or planet, testifies to its existence, the observable difference between what is alive and what is not indicates the existence of a yet unquantifiable force which we humans have yet to create. Or to return to our analogy, even if we couldnt measure or understand electricity, obseving what happens when a computer is plugged into a supply source as opposed to a perfectly built computer thatnis not, would be enough for us to discen there is something in the cord attached to the wall that makes the equipment function.

PSALMS 36:9 - New International Version

For with you is the fountain of life; in your light we see light

.

The bible indicates this spirit can be thought of as the force of life (See Psalms 36:9) ; while it cannot at present be measured by present scientific means, its presence can be deduced by informed observation.

Seems to me that you are just assuming that this stuff exists, and interpreting what you can see in a way to support it.

If spirit is to people as electricity is to computers, the spirit is nothing more than the energy we get from the food we eat.

No, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.

[Kylie]

No, I am just trying to help you understand in the simpliste terms I can since you expressed confusion earlier. The spirit (as in the breath of life ) is the force of life, the power that animates all living things. If you are alive you have this (force of ) life: so you can discern its presence by the very fact that you live. Thus life itself (rather than food) becomes, or all intents and purposes, synonymous with spirit (as used for living things).

Nonetheless, what you are saying does not match with what you said earlier.

You also said: "Biblically, the spirit is that which causes us to live."

this is saying nothing more than, "Living causes us to live." This is meaningless, as it is saying the end result is a cause of the end result.

Yes, because the bible does not (so we cannot) defined spirit beyond what it does and where it comes from. Note the poetic parallelism in the earlier mentioned Psalm : "With you is the source of life; By your light we can see light" (NWT)

The claim is still meaningless. What you are proposing seems to be no different than Henri Bergson's Élan vital.

"Élan vital, coined by French philosopher Henri Bergson in his 1907 book Creative Evolution, was translated in the English edition as "vital impetus", but is usually translated by his detractors as "vital force". It is a hypothetical explanation for evolution and development of organisms, which Bergson linked closely with consciousness. It was the existence of this vital force, which made people at that time believe that they were not able to synthesize organic molecules.

It was believed by others that this essence (élan vital) could be harvested and embedded into an inanimate substance and activated with electricity, perhaps taking literally another of Bergson's metaphorical descriptions, the "current of life". The British biologist Julian Huxley remarked that Bergson’s élan vital is no better an explanation of life than is explaining the operation of a railway engine by its élan locomotif"

SOURCE

I would say that life is an emergent property when you have cells powered by energy.

Fair enough. You see that energy you just mentioned ? ... biblically, God's spirit is the source of that.

No, the nutrients they ingest is the source of that.

If you disagree, please stop eating and drinking and see how well you do living off the energy that God's spirit provides.

[Kylie]

"No we are not animated by food, we are energized by it."

You do not define what "animated" means and you do not define what "energized" means

Seriously? You dont know the difference between food giving you life and food keeping you alive?


NB : I always take it my readers have access to a dictionary when I am using words in their convention sense

How does anything "Give" life? You are using vague terms that sound neat but when examined closely have little meaning behind them.

[Kylie]

No, the spirit is the breath of life from God, like what He gave Adam when He created him: "And Jehovah God went on to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul." (Genesis 2:7) Without the breath of life, or, spirit from God we would not be alive. We wouldn't exist. You can try to feed a person without that spirit (a dead person) with all kinds of food, yet he will not live. So it's not the food that could be called the breath of life.

Because the processes that turn the food into energy have been shut down.

This isn't a mystery.