The Three Biblical Interpretations About Afterlife

[William]

Lately some of us have been arguing from three differing positions is which the bible can be used to defend all three. All three appear to agree that each individual has a "Soul" although there may be disagreement on what the exact function of a "Soul" is.

[1] A "Person" is "Spirit" and temporarily exists as a human being until the body dies then that "Person" enters an afterlife and is judged by "God" and is condemned or saved. Those saved go to "heaven" and those condemned go to "Hell" - or in some variances on this, are "exterminated".

[2] A "Person" a "Human being" and when the human being dies, that is the end of that person unless "God" judges them as "saved" in which case that person is resurrected and given a new body which will last forever more.

[3] A "Person" is an eternal Spirit in human form and when the body dies, that Spirit immediately moves to the next phase and either knowingly or unknowingly creates for their self, their next experience, based upon a combination of mainly what they believe, what their overall attitude is and what they did in the previous phase.

Often any different position which opposes another might logically mean that they both cannot be correct, assuming one or the other is true.

Both [1]&[2] fall into this category as they cannot both be true. [1]&[2] also both agree that [3] is false.

However, [3] Can be true without making the other two false.

And [3] - just as with [1]&[2] can be backed by the bible, depending on what parts of the bible once uses to do so.

The bible is interpreted throughout, based upon which position [1][2] or [3] is being used to interpret it through [the filter].

If [1]&[2] oppose each other but can still be "proven" by using the bible, then this makes the bible something of a contradiction.

But if [3] - although different from [1]&[2] does not oppose either [1]&[2] and can still be "proven" by using the bible just like [1]&[2], then [3] takes away the contradictory aspect of the bible which [1]&[2] create by being in opposition.

Question: Would it be fair to say therefore, that [3] is the best position to assume on the overall biblical script to do with the subject of the next phase [afterlife]?

[myth-one.com]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness in post #79]

There are two type of bodies -- natural and spiritual.

Natural bodied beings live in the physical, worldly, earthly, natural world.

No human can positively state where spirits live. It seems that they can live in both worlds.

But for sure, natural bodied man cannot see or inherit the spiritual Kingdom of God.

So only spiritual bodied beings can become a member of the Kingdom of God within the Kingdom of Heaven.

===============================================

Jesus was a man:

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

We are given an explanation of why Jesus was made as a man. He was made a man so that He could perish!

During Jesus' human lifetime, the Word continued to exist in parallel with Jesus because The Word cannot die -- being immortal.

If the Word could die, He could have accomplished what Jesus did directly.

But The Word could not do what a man could do -- die. Therefore, Jesus (a man) was needed temporarily.

=====================================================

Jesus' death on the cross was His "first death" which is appointed to all mankind:

And it is appointed unto men once to die, . . . (Hebrews 9:27)

Since Jesus' first death was appointed, that is not what saves believers -- as it had to occur.

The only way Jesus' first death could have been avoided was for the Word to have never agreed to be "made flesh" in the first place.

But this was the best plan to provide a pathway for men to become angels and replenish the earth.

And really, it is appropriate that The Word should fix the problem within the original creation plan, because The Word created it in the first place. One can imagine God the Father telling His son to go fix that problem on the earth which He created.

After Jesus lived a sinless life, and offered His inheritance of everlasting spiritual life to mankind who believeth in Him, the fix was completed.

So mankind now has a pathway to immortality, and the angels who left their first estate can be replaced.

====================================================

So how to unwind the process?

Jesus never sinned, so He is not headed for any second death in the lake of fire.

By living a sinless human life, His name is in the Book of Life as an inheritor of everlasting spiritual life under the Old Testament Covenant.

===================================================

But God allows Jesus to offer His inheritance as a gift to any other human who accepts Jesus as their Savior from the wages of their sins under a new covenant -- The New Testament Covenant.

==================================================

Every human ever created will be resurrected back to life. Jesus was resurrected three days after His first death as a human.

And really, since every dead human will live again, they are not really dead. Thus the scriptures typically refer to the "dead" as sleeping, slumbering, or at rest.

So Jesus was awakened or resurrected as a man.

Remember that He has already agreed to give away His inheritance, so He cannot be born again of the Spirit as a new spirit.

But His mission is accomplished, and there is no longer any need for Him to suffer additionally as a human.

Witnesses see Him being carried into the heavens as a human.

But He cannot live in the heavens as a human.

==============================================

The next to be resurrected from their earthly graves are "they that are Christ's":

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

At that same time, those believers living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed directly from natural to spiritual beings:

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51)

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

I imagine (but do not know for a fact) that Jesus' change will be similar.

[William]

It is complete enough. Obviously Christians can come along and add their particular different beliefs to [1]&[2] but [1]&[2] share those fundamental aspects which such extra beliefs then branch away from.

Truth be told, everyone's beliefs - if examined - would show slight variations to overall themes...so the [1] [2] & [3] are about categorical distinctions which branch away and are evident in how Christians argue against each other re said differences to do with [1]&[2] which position [3] has no wriggle room in which to do so.

It is confusing to me and appears to be incomplete.

Only because I left out the incidentals I simply brought attention to the 3 main branches of the tree and some of the branches going off of those - but I left the twigs out...

Here is how I would categorize things:

[1] Eternal 'afterlife' existence for all in one phase (either Heaven or Hell)

[2] Eternal 'afterlife' existence for the saved in one phase (Heaven) and (at most) a temporary 'afterlife' existence for the unsaved before being exterminated.

[3] Eternal 'afterlife' existence for all in various phases they create for themselves.

In this categorization, I am undecided between [1] and [2] but lean towards [2].

Yes. I am aware of your position. Your categorization deals with the three main branches of this particular tree, and shows [1]&[2] have similarities and differences which place you in an agnostic position regarding your indecision.

I think the only 'reasoning' you've offered for your view is that it is logically possible. I think the reasoning for my beliefs outweighs the mere logical possibility of your view being true.

I suppose that your opinion can be noted here, but I have no memory of your offering support for this assertion...

I'm supposed to offer support for my assertion that I haven't seen you offer any positive view for your support?

Then read the thread - read my posts.

If you've offered positive support for your view of the afterlife being true and I've missed it, then please just point back to the post or repeat it, friend.

Rather - as needed - I will continue to offer support for position [3]

I would argue that right now the bodies we Eternal Spirits are inside of, were meant to be as intended. The way they were created to be.

Do you have an argument to support this claim for me to consider, since I disagree?

Yes. The Eternal Creator doesn't make mistakes and intended our current human forms to function as they do. Thus they are intended to retard any memory of we having existed before, so that the experience of 'being human' is as genuine as possible. Also, said forms were not meant to completely retard ability to experience alternate realities, and this is designed so, because The Eternal Creator does not want us to forget we are Eternal Spirits, forever...

This ignores the possibility of the Creator giving creatures libertarian free will.

The Eternal Creator first asked us if we wanted to experience this universe and told us that we would forget who we were and where we came from, if we did so.
We chose to do so.

Libertarian free will could be the cause of the mistakes.

What mistakes? Why are you bringing mistakes into the arguement?

For your above reasoning to be good reasoning you need to address how your view outweighs that possibility.

See above.

Try believing yourself to being an Eternal Spirit of The Eternal Creator and see how much your view here will naturally change...to a being whom always creates through Love.

It won't automatically change our actions to loving ones. Whatever one thinks is 'loving' will simply be given divine authority and would no longer be questioned, since one views themself as divine.

That of course - goes for all who claim divinity. Who are you, in thinking oneself a human to know what love and divinity is?
But then, you also believe you are "Spirit" so what is it about "Spirit" that "Human" doesn't trust, and why?

Deep introspection unclouded by the filters of belief systems resisting all truth, tells us something to the contrary - but one will never know that until one learns to go that deep...

This could be said and believed by anyone of any belief system.

Except for Christians who believe in [1]or[2] Deep introspection is not called for, nor required within those positions.

We hold the belief systems we do because we think they aren't resisting truth.

Even so, when shown, Christians in positions [1]&[2] willing ignore the evidence in order to continue filtering reality through those beliefs.
You need only read the thread to see the evidence of Christians arguing which position among them is the greatest...

I know you think your belief system is the non-resistant one. I disagree.

I know you disagree. But your reasons for disagreeing are unreasonable, as I will continue to show to those with eyes to see.

An example of Deeper Introspection

[JehovahsWitness]

During Jesus' human lifetime, the Word continued to exist in parallel with Jesus because The Word cannot die -- being immortal.

Thanks for all that... now

I take it (correct me if I am wrong) but you are simply trying to say Jesus changed from having in a physical body as a human being to having in a spirit body (so he could enter heaven).

[myth-one.com]

During Jesus' human lifetime, the Word continued to exist in parallel with Jesus because The Word cannot die -- being immortal.

Thanks for all that... now

I take it (correct me if I am wrong) but you are simply trying to say Jesus changed from having in a physical body as a human being to having in a spirit body (so he could enter heaven).

Okay, I'm absolutely correcting you. You are wrong!

If Jesus was changed into a spiritual body, then He received His reward for living a sinless life under the Old Testament Covenant. That reward is the granting of everlasting spiritual life.

If He received His reward then He cannot also give it as a free gift to those who believe in Him as their Savior.

So we have no Savior.

Right?

Where did you find that idea in any of my posts?

[JehovahsWitness]

I take it (correct me if I am wrong) but you are simply trying to say Jesus changed from having in a physical body as a human being to having in a spirit body (so he could enter heaven).

Okay, I'm absolutely correcting you. You are wrong!

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51) ...I imagine (but do not know for a fact) that Jesus' change will be similar.

Okay so .... there are only 2 types of body (a) a spiritual one( b) a physical body. And only spiritual bodies can be in heaven. If Christ ascended heavenward in a physical one, ....

• Are you saying that to date Jesus has never changed that physical body for a spiritual one?

• Which of the two types of bodies does Jesus presently have in heaven*?

* (I think we can all agree Jesus is presently in heaven at the righthand side of his father )


JW

[The Tanager]

I think it will be fully what human was always meant to be but different than what it is for us right now.

I would argue that right now the bodies we Eternal Spirits are inside of, were meant to be as intended. The way they were created to be.

Do you have an argument to support this claim for me to consider, since I disagree?

Yes. The Eternal Creator doesn't make mistakes and intended our current human forms to function as they do.

Libertarian free will could be the cause of the mistakes.

What mistakes? Why are you bringing mistakes into the arguement?

It was brought up awhile ago, not just now. I implied that there are mistakes in humanity right now. You implied that those aren't mistakes. I asked for support for that claim. You argued that the Creator doesn't make mistakes and, therefore, humans are functioning as they were meant to. I agree that the Creator doesn't make mistakes. It does not logically follow from this, however, that humans are functioning as they were meant to. The mistakes (if they are mistakes) could come from human wills. So, in order for your reasoning to be good reasoning, you need to show why one should believe either that (1) there are no mistakes in humanity or (2) why human wills cannot be the source of the mistakes. You have done neither so far.

That of course - goes for all who claim divinity. Who are you, in thinking oneself a human to know what love and divinity is?

If I know anything of love, then it comes from the omniscient, omnibenevolent Creator informing me of it.

But then, you also believe you are "Spirit" so what is it about "Spirit" that "Human" doesn't trust, and why?

I see no reason to believe there is this dichotomy of 'spirit' and 'human,' so I see no distrust of the 'spirit' by the 'human'.

Except for Christians who believe in [1]or[2] Deep introspection is not called for, nor required within those positions.

It's not logically required of [3] either. Yet, there are Christians in both [1] and [2] that have carried on deep introspection. Unless, of course, you are begging the question by believing that all of those who truly introspect deeply will believe [3] to be true.

Even so, when shown, Christians in positions [1]&[2] willing ignore the evidence in order to continue filtering reality through those beliefs.
You need only read the thread to see the evidence of Christians arguing which position among them is the greatest...

Just because you say they are ignoring the evidence doesn't mean they are. They could say the same thing of you. You, too, are arguing that your position is the greatest among them all.

[myth-one.com]

I take it (correct me if I am wrong) but you are simply trying to say Jesus changed from having in a physical body as a human being to having in a spirit body (so he could enter heaven).

Okay, I'm absolutely correcting you. You are wrong!

Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed. (I Corinthians 15:51) ...I imagine (but do not know for a fact) that Jesus' change will be similar.

Okay so .... there are only 2 types of body (a) a spiritual one( b) a physical body. And only spiritual bodies can be in heaven. If Christ ascended heavenward in a physical one, ....

• Are you saying that to date Jesus has never changed that physical body for a spiritual one?

He cannot do that and also be our Savior.

• Which of the two types of bodies does Jesus presently have in heaven*?

When we speak of Jesus today, I believe we would be more correct to address Him and The Word as The Word.

* (I think we can all agree Jesus is presently in heaven at the righthand side of his father )

Define what you mean by "Jesus".

The Bible's definition is that Jesus is the Word made flesh. He was born of Mary, and that which is born of the flesh is flesh.

How can The Word made flesh be now in heaven? (flesh cannot inherit . . .)

The mystery man cannot understand is the linkage between the spiritual bodied Word and the man Jesus.

Jesus was the Word made flesh.

Flesh is temporary.

Jesus successfully completed His mission for which He was created as a flesh and blood man.

========================================

I think things have returned to pre-Jesus days in Heaven.

Jesus was the Word made flesh. So when we speak of the Word or Jesus we are speaking of the Word.

That is, The Word and The Word made flesh are both the Word, but simply in different forms -- one temporary and one everlasting.

The temporary form of the Word now exists in name only.

[JehovahsWitness]

• Which of the two types of bodies does Jesus presently have in heaven*?

When we speak of Jesus today, I believe we would be more correct to address Him and The Word as The Word.

Okay would that be in ...

Body type #1: A spiritual body
Body type #2: A physical body

...or a hitherto unmentioned

Body type #3: A combination of both of the above and/or something different entirely not mentioned explicitly in scripture



JW

[William]

"Enjoy The Ride" I say.

Don't you mean "trip?"

Grace and peace to you.

Whatever it is - enjoy it. One cannot achieve joy while one is casting shadow spells and handwaving good argument away by dressing it up in devilskin and dismissing it. Good argument isn't perturbed by such tactic. One can resist by it does not flee...
That hocus-pocus [shadow spells] is simply avoiding the meat in favor of the milk - grown ups have perfected the embracing of the "trip" they are on without the need to embellish the story with scary monsters and superfreaks tearing at the defenses ....

[William]

I think it will be fully what human was always meant to be but different than what it is for us right now.

I would argue that right now the bodies we Eternal Spirits are inside of, were meant to be as intended. The way they were created to be.

Do you have an argument to support this claim for me to consider, since I disagree?

Yes. The Eternal Creator doesn't make mistakes and intended our current human forms to function as they do.

Libertarian free will could be the cause of the mistakes.

What mistakes? Why are you bringing mistakes into the argument?

It was brought up awhile ago, not just now.

Okay...

I implied that there are mistakes in humanity right now. You implied that those aren't mistakes.

Do you have support for this which you claim happened 'quite a while ago'?

I asked for support for that claim. You argued that the Creator doesn't make mistakes and, therefore, humans are functioning as they were meant to.

It looks like you are confused. My argument remains that everything [creation] is already known by The Eternal Creator before it is made... and we, still somewhere near the beginning of the story we are occupied within, remain ignorant of that.
The ignorance allows for humans to make mistakes but those mistakes are all taken care of eventually, as knowledge replaces ignorance. That is what position [3] exemplifies.

I agree that the Creator doesn't make mistakes.

Only in as far as positions [1]&[2] allow that. Those positions think [3] is a mistake and if it were the case that [3] is the truth then [1]&[2] see that as "The Creator making a mistake" [by allowing it]

It does not logically follow from this, however, that humans are functioning as they were meant to.

Nor do I argue that. Human forms have been functioning as they were expected to. That is different than not being used as they were meant to. It 'does not follow' in your logic, because you are coming from a different position than [3]...so the filters employed simply give you a different logic to work with.

The mistakes (if they are mistakes) could come from human wills.

Does the human form possess a 'will'? [1]&[2] Or has the Spirit surrendered its will to the human form, by identifying as the human form? [3] Because the human form was designed so that the Spirit within it animating it, has no recollection of being anything else...yet the truth is, It does have a history which goes back to before this universe was created.

So, in order for your reasoning to be good reasoning, you need to show why one should believe either that (1) there are no mistakes in humanity or (2) why human wills cannot be the source of the mistakes. You have done neither so far.

I have indeed attempted to explain this reasonably, and will continue to do so.

That of course - goes for all who claim divinity. Who are you, in thinking oneself a human to know what love and divinity is?

If I know anything of love, then it comes from the omniscient, omnibenevolent Creator informing me of it.

Whereas I understand it comes from myself [as Spirit within human form] information hardwired into my being, which I forgot the moment I stepped into a human form and 'became human'... It is the same declaration with the additional realization that I am the Spirit of omniscient, omnibenevolent Creator informing the 'me' illusion of being 'human', of Love.
A deviation with profound consequence of the divine...[3]

But then, you also believe you are "Spirit" so what is it about "Spirit" that "Human" doesn't trust, and why?

I see no reason to believe there is this dichotomy of 'spirit' and 'human,' so I see no distrust of the 'spirit' by the 'human'.

Then there is no logical reason for you to continue rejecting [3]

Except for Christians who believe in [1]or[2] Deep introspection is not called for, nor required within those positions.

It's not logically required of [3] either. Yet, there are Christians in both [1] and [2] that have carried on deep introspection. Unless, of course, you are begging the question by believing that all of those who truly introspect deeply will believe [3] to be true.

It is simply a natural occurrence with [3] - deep is unto deep. [1]&[2] are deeper than [0] but cannot be deeper that [3] because they cannot contain [3]. It is really just a form of math as [3] must be deeper than [1]&[2] as it contains both [1]&[2] as subsections of its overall reality membrane.

Even so, when shown, Christians in positions [1]&[2] willing ignore the evidence in order to continue filtering reality through those beliefs.
You need only read the thread to see the evidence of Christians arguing which position among them is the greatest...

Just because you say they are ignoring the evidence doesn't mean they are.

Of course not. Nor do I argue that. Rather, their own actions confirm it to be the case.

They could say the same thing of you.

No. What they do is ignore me or on occasion imply that I am "something evil" in their estimate [such as indirectly calling me a "heretic" - casting shadow-spells at me.]
I never ignore what they present as evidence when they do so. I always respond to anything which acknowledges something of an understanding of my argument.

You, too, are arguing that your position is the greatest among them all.

Nor do I argue that. The position of [3] accepts that [1]&[2] will create whatever they will from their beliefs and attitudes in the next phase and will largely be unaware that this is what is occurring. They will, on occasion, be visited by Soul Retrievers who will encourage them to come out from under their self made creations and into the realization of that which they have resisted being aware of.

[3] offers a better alternative than [1]&[2] and if this is 'greater' it is only so in a 'better' way.

[1]&[2] simply want justice in the form of hellish existence for those who do not believe what they believe, or extermination and either way, speak of this as 'love'.
Human love perhaps. But not divine love so 'sorry but that is not available to you in any other way than to allow you to create it for yourself'...