The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[PinSeeker]

I think, Tammy, you surely don't mean to be, but you are being wooden with regard to language, both that of Scripture and my own words (not to equate the two, of course). But, at the risk of sounding insulting at all -- which is surely not my intent -- that's what you're doing, albeit unintentionally.

Yes, Satan can deceive individuals as far as tempting them to sin and thereby act unbecoming of followers of Christ Jesus and failing to glorify God as they should. But deceiving nations with regard to obscuring the Gospel and God's salvation is a different thing altogether. We should understand "the nations" not in the context of individuals, but rather in the context of the Great Commission:

• "All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations..." (Matthew 28:18-20)

And in the context of Revelation itself:

• "And they sang a new song, saying, “Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." (Revelation 5:9)

Before the advent of Christ, Satan could deceive the nations -- except for the Israelites, the nation of Israel -- because the Gospel was not yet opened to other nations. But when Jesus was born, the Gospel was opened to all nations -- which we see in Luke 2 in the angel's proclamation to the shepherds:

• "I bring you good news of great joy which will be for all the people; for today in the city of David there has been born for you a Savior, who is Christ the Lord." (Luke 2:10-11)

Again, until that point, Satan could deceive nations with regard to the Gospel, but he can no longer do that. God is building His Kingdom, and His purposes cannot be thwarted. AS A CONSEQUENCE, Satan cannot stop the spread of the Gospel among the nations. This should be great news to you and me regarding evangelism; we can rest assured that Satan cannot -- CANNOT -- cloud our message. Now, God may or may not use our efforts regarding converting individuals with whom we actually come in contact and share the Gospel, but the Gospel message itself cannot be clouded with deception by Satan. In this way, Satan is bound. Again, Jesus says:

• "...if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s (Satan's) house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man (Satan himself)?" (Matthew 12:28-29)

Revelation is not a matter of our opinions, or our 'say so'.

Yeah, see, here's an example. All I was saying was, we disagree. Now that I've explained my position a little further, if we still disagree, then, we still disagree. Right?

[onewithhim]

The verse says that the rest of the dead (other than the ones who participated in the first resurrection, who will rule with Christ) "did not come to life" until the thousand years were completed (NASB ). The issue is: What does it mean, that they "did not come to life"? Why does it have to mean "they weren't resurrected" until the thousand years were over"? Why can't it mean that they weren't eligible to LIVE FOREVER (really "coming to life") until the end of the thousand years?

Everyone whose name was written in the Book of Life was resurrected in the first resurrection at the Second Coming. They are identified as "they that are Christ's."

Everyone resurrected a thousand years later are those who weren't eligible for everlasting life as you say -- as they are nonbelievers whose names were not written in the Book of Life.

No, not everyone who is written in the Book of Life will be resurrected in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is for those who will rule with Christ in heaven. They go there before Armageddon and ride with Christ to destroy the wicked. They have a resurrection to spirit bodies.

The second resurrection involves all of the people who have died since Abel, who have the earthly hope. "They that are Christ's" are two groups. Jesus told his Apostles (who were slated to rule with him in HEAVEN, and who he called a "little flock") that he had "OTHER SHEEP that are not of this fold." (John 10:16) They are the ones who will live on the earth.

If wicked people who are not eligible for everlasting life are resurrected at the end of the Millennium, what is the point of resurrecting them? Just to take away their life AGAIN? YOU are the one who makes no sense. Tell me why a wicked person who was killed by Christ at Armageddon would be brought back to life again. What possible reason could there be to kill someone, resurrect them, then kill them again?

[myth-one.com]

The verse says that the rest of the dead (other than the ones who participated in the first resurrection, who will rule with Christ) "did not come to life" until the thousand years were completed (NASB ). The issue is: What does it mean, that they "did not come to life"? Why does it have to mean "they weren't resurrected" until the thousand years were over"? Why can't it mean that they weren't eligible to LIVE FOREVER (really "coming to life") until the end of the thousand years?

Everyone whose name was written in the Book of Life was resurrected in the first resurrection at the Second Coming. They are identified as "they that are Christ's."

Everyone resurrected a thousand years later are those who weren't eligible for everlasting life as you say -- as they are nonbelievers whose names were not written in the Book of Life.

No, not everyone who is written in the Book of Life will be resurrected in the first resurrection. The first resurrection is for those who will rule with Christ in heaven. They go there before Armageddon and ride with Christ to destroy the wicked. They have a resurrection to spirit bodies.

The second resurrection involves all of the people who have died since Abel, who have the earthly hope. "They that are Christ's" are two groups. Jesus told his Apostles (who were slated to rule with him in HEAVEN, and who he called a "little flock") that he had "OTHER SHEEP that are not of this fold." (John 10:16) They are the ones who will live on the earth.

If wicked people who are not eligible for everlasting life are resurrected at the end of the Millennium, what is the point of resurrecting them? Just to take away their life AGAIN? YOU are the one who makes no sense. Tell me why a wicked person who was killed by Christ at Armageddon would be brought back to life again. What possible reason could there be to kill someone, resurrect them, then kill them again?

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 65 by PinSeeker]

I'm sorry, PinSeeker. I can tell that to reason with you would be fruitless. You don't seem to be seeking the truth of matters.

Anyone who can't see clearly that if Christ TOOK BACK the sacrifice of his physical body, we would remain in our sins, doesn't understand the idea of the redemption and the restoration of the fulfillment of God's plan for humans to live on the earth and take care of it (making it into a paradise). You don't see any worth in the first few verses in Genesis, where Jehovah expressed His purpose for mankind and the earth. You seem to have missed what God said to Adam about his death---that he would return to the dust. Nothing about a spirit Adam not really dying but leaving his body to go somewhere else.

The point was missed that it was Satan, not God, who said that people DON'T REALLY DIE when they die. (Genesis 3:4)

But I cannot reason with most of the folks here.

Peace to you.

Um, onewithhim, I think you are attributing some of the things myth-one said in my discussion with him to me. Which, uh... well, uh... please, please, PLEASE don't do that...

That being said, though, regarding fruitlessness, if you're talking about it from your own point of view, then there's a good possibility of that, as I am very strongly opposed to a good many teachings of Jehovah's Witnesses... But I'm really of the opinion that no discussion is fruitless from God's point of view; His purposes cannot be thwarted (Job 42:2) and are always accomplished; His word never returns to Him empty/void (Isaiah 55:11).

Maybe you can point out a thing or two that I actually said and we can talk about it.

[myth-one.com]

The first resurrection is for those who will rule with Christ in heaven.

Jesus is presently in heaven preparing a place for us:

I go to prepare a place for you. (John 14:2)

When our place is ready, Jesus will bring it back to earth upon His return:

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. (John 14:3)

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. (Revelation 21:1-2)

Jesus has been preparing our new earth and its associated surroundings for the past two thousand years. He is bringing His new creation back to the earth when He returns and Christians will be with Jesus for eternity. "That where I am, there ye may be also."

The earthly world is not presently part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It is basically a colony which has rebelled under Satan and some of his angels and broken away from the kingdom. However, the kingdoms of this world will once again become the kingdoms of our Lord and Christ:

The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 11:15)

The earth will once again become part of the Kingdom of Heaven. It will not be heaven, but will be under God's rule and part of the Kingdom of Heaven as is heaven itself. This will occur when Jesus returns to take back control of the earth from Satan. And how long does Jesus our Lord intend to reign on the earth?

The Lord shall reign for ever and ever. (Exodus 15:18)

The Lord shall reign for ever... (Psalm 146:10)

And they shall reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)

And what are the born again Christians going to be doing after Jesus' return?

We shall also reign with him. (II Timothy 2:12)

And how long are the born again Christians going to be with the Lord Jesus?

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (I Thessalonians 4:17)

Jesus will base His rule and locate His tabernacle to rule the earth in the holy city of new Jerusalem:

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. (Revelation 21:2-3)

New Jerusalem is part of what Jesus has been preparing for us over the past two thousand years. He will bring it down from heaven upon His return. Since Jesus is going to rule the earth forever from new Jerusalem, and we will rule with Him, and be with Him forever, where does that place us forever and ever?

On the earth!

The scriptures never indicate that Christians cannot or will not go to heaven. After all, it is also included in the Kingdom of Heaven.

However, our home base will definitely be the good earth!

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 75 by PinSeeker]

Revelation is apocalyptic literature, but that doesn't mean it's hard to understand. It should be read as a picture book, not as a puzzle book.

Indeed.

I drew that conclusion some years ago.

But the real key is to see Revelation as a panorama of the clash of the two kingdoms, leading to the inevitable victory of the kingdom of God with all that that means.

A picture says a thousand words.

Revelation depicts that, although some battles appear to be lost, the real battle is the decisive one that is easily won, ending the war forever.

Revelation is a recapitulation of history -- past, present, and future... several times over -- of the history of the world leading up to Christ's return

Exactly.

Not of this world but of the two kingdoms; of their ebb and flow.

Grace and peace to you and to all.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 95 by Checkpoint]

Thanks for those words, Checkpoint. Grace and peace to you also.

[myth-one.com]

If wicked people who are not eligible for everlasting life are resurrected at the end of the Millennium, what is the point of resurrecting them? Just to take away their life AGAIN? YOU are the one who makes no sense. Tell me why a wicked person who was killed by Christ at Armageddon would be brought back to life again. What possible reason could there be to kill someone, resurrect them, then kill them again?

Christianity divides humanity into two obvious groups -- believers and nonbelievers.

What is called the "first resurrection" is restricted to believers only:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

All others, or the rest of the dead will be resurrected after the millennium:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. (Revelation 20:4-5)

And this order serves a purpose. The believers (those that are Christ's) will be resurrected to everlasting life and spent the 1000-years with Jesus.

They will be preparing for duties involving the unbelievers -- judgment, preaching the gospel to them, etc.

There is no reason to raise the nonbelievers until the believers and their Savior are prepared to receive them.

So the order of resurrection will be believers, then nonbelievers:

and I have the same hope in God that they themselves cherish, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

There were not any righteous and wicked resurrected at the same time.

All righteous were resurrected together, and all wicked were resurrected together a 1000 years later.

==========================================================================

It is very important to note that after the judgment of nonbelievers resurrected in the second resurrection, whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. Be aware that absolutely none of those resurrected at the second resurrection had their names written in the book of life when resurrected!

Every single human, dead or alive, with their names written in the Book of Life were born again as spirits at the first resurrection! So why are they checking the book again? Something obviously occurred since these nonbelievers were resurrected to cause the book of life to be modified. Otherwise, there would be no reason to check the book again for their names.

What happened?

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity!

At this time these people will hear the true message for the first time from angels, including Christians born again as spirits in the first resurrection, with Satan and all of his myths and lies totally defeated. Most people have never been given a choice based on Biblical truth! Their choice was based on myths and fear.

Those times will be over!

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matthew 24:14)

The the bulk of humanity will hear the good news from a child:

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (II Timothy 3:15)

These born again Christians from the first resurrection are these children! They were born as children of the resurrection and have lived through one thousand years of training with Jesus prior to the second resurrection of nonbelievers. Thus they are one day old children!

Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection. (Luke 20:36)

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. (Revelation 20:6)

So these priests of God and of Christ will spread the true gospel message to this multitude of nonbelievers.

Those who accept Jesus as their Savior will have their names written in the Book of Life at that time.

That is why they check the book again.

Those still rejecting Jesus will be cast into the lake of fire and suffer their immediate and everlasting physical death.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 55 by Checkpoint]

The meaning of verse 5 focuses on the rest of the dead (other than the co-rulers with Christ) "coming to life" when the thousand years were ended. What does "coming to
life" actually mean? Does it mean that the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years? Or does it mean that these dead have passed the test, if you will, of accepting the truth about God and Christ during the Millennial Reign, and then living according to the "new scrolls" that were opened when Armageddon was over (Rev.20:12), then making themselves eligible for everlasting life? The fact that these formerly dead people have now proven their faithfulness to God and Christ makes them approved to live forever---thus "coming to life".....the real life, the life that will never end.

This makes the most sense to me, and it's not just because someone said that is what verse 5 means.

Thank you for further explaining what makes the most sense to you, onewithhim.

However, that explanation is only possible when what the verse says is directly contradicted.

The verse says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over", doesn't it?

What did you say?

"that these dead have passed the test...during the Millennial Reign", didn't you?

They cannot do that while they remain dead until that reign is over.

Why on earth do I have to spell that out to you?

Where are you, onewithhim?

Grace and peace.

The verse says that the rest of the dead (other than the ones who participated in the first resurrection, who will rule with Christ) "did not come to life" until the thousand years were completed (NASB ). The issue is: What does it mean, that they "did not come to life"? Why does it have to mean "they weren't resurrected" until the thousand years were over"? Why can't it mean that they weren't eligible to LIVE FOREVER (really "coming to life") until the end of the thousand years?

"Life" here means the real life---that is, ETERNAL life, not merely life given back to the dead. The rest of the dead truly were able to come to the REAL life---eternal life.

Paul even said that this life---just breathing---is not the real life.

"Instruct them to be good, to be rich in good works, to be generous and ready to share, storing up for themselves the treasure of a good foundation for the future, so that they may take hold of that which is LIFE INDEED." (NASB)
(the life that is TRUE life) (NAB)

(the life that is TRULY LIFE) (NIV)


Is that not enough to show you that "life" to a Christian who is looking to live forever is just that---ETERNAL life? That unending life is the REAL life?

I think that is what Revelation 20:5 is speaking of, and I have not added anything to, or contradicted, the verse as it stands.

On reflection, I have tentatively concluded that none of us can be sure of just who "the rest of the dead" are, and why they are mentioned at all.

The passage tells us nothing directly.

What you say about "came to life" seems to be consistent within that context.

So thank you for that; it is never too late to learn more.

Grace and peace to you.

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 55 by Checkpoint]

The meaning of verse 5 focuses on the rest of the dead (other than the co-rulers with Christ) "coming to life" when the thousand years were ended. What does "coming to
life" actually mean? Does it mean that the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years? Or does it mean that these dead have passed the test, if you will, of accepting the truth about God and Christ during the Millennial Reign, and then living according to the "new scrolls" that were opened when Armageddon was over (Rev.20:12), then making themselves eligible for everlasting life? The fact that these formerly dead people have now proven their faithfulness to God and Christ makes them approved to live forever---thus "coming to life".....the real life, the life that will never end.

This makes the most sense to me, and it's not just because someone said that is what verse 5 means.

Thank you for further explaining what makes the most sense to you, onewithhim.

However, that explanation is only possible when what the verse says is directly contradicted.

The verse says "the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were over", doesn't it?

What did you say?

"that these dead have passed the test...during the Millennial Reign", didn't you?

They cannot do that while they remain dead until that reign is over.

Why on earth do I have to spell that out to you?

Where are you, onewithhim?

Grace and peace.

The verse says that the rest of the dead (other than the ones who participated in the first resurrection, who will rule with Christ) "did not come to life" until the thousand years were completed (NASB ). The issue is: What does it mean, that they "did not come to life"? Why does it have to mean "they weren't resurrected" until the thousand years were over"? Why can't it mean that they weren't eligible to LIVE FOREVER (really "coming to life") until the end of the thousand years?

This is not consistent with what 'came to life' meant in the preceding sentence with regard to the first resurrection.

I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.


When the verse states, "They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years", you correctly understand that this coming to life is referring to the first resurrection. Yes?


Came to life = the first resurrection.



Well, the immediate sentence afterward states that the rest of the dead do not come to life until the end of the thousand years. Using the same understanding you applied to the previous sentence and the first resurrection, the rest of the dead are not resurrected until the end of the thousand years.




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy