Reincarnation and the Bible

[amptramp]

In John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

It is always fun to see Biblical literalists tap-dance around that statement.

and in Matthew 17:12-13

"But I tell you Elijah has come and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

whereas we already know that John was born shortly before Jesus in Luke 1:44

"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

So we know that John the Baptist had a normal birth near the time of Jesus' birth but that he had been Elijah and Jesus had told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. This seems to point to a literal rebirth rather than a figurative change in life. It appears that reincarnation (which was also preached by Origen among other leaders of the early church) has been eliminated from the doctrine. I believe reincarnation and the doctrine of karma is the only way to understand that none of the law shall pass away for each individual and that there is an actual consequence rather than a go / no-go gauging of each person at the end of life.

Anyone ready to comment on this?

[sleepyhead]

[Replying to post 6 by Bede]
Taking the questions in reverse order: Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, not really something to base doctrine upon.

Parables are a teaching vehicle not mere story telling.

I agree and since Jesus gave several "kingdom of Heaven" parables he's the only one who actually claimed to know anything about the afterlife. He gave the following parable. It's repeated several times but I'll give the Matthew one here. I will be interpreting it based on my belief in reincarnation. I need you to interpret it based on your understanding of the afterlife.

MT 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far
country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his
goods.
MT 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to
another one; to every man according to his several ability; and
straightway took his journey.
MT 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded
with the same, and made them other five talents.
MT 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other
two.
MT 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth,
and hid his lord's money.
MT 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and
reckoneth with them.
MT 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought
other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents:
behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
MT 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful
servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee
ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
MT 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord,
thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other
talents beside them.
MT 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant;
thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over
many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
MT 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said,
Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast
not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
MT 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo,
there thou hast that is thine.
MT 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and
slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and
gather where I have not strawed:
MT 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the
exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own
with usury.
MT 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him
which hath ten talents.
MT 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall
have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even
that which he hath.
MT 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

vs. 14 The man traveling to a far country would be the Watchers (mentioned in the Book of Daniel) who are in charge of the earth. He isn't actually traveling anywhere but the servants are traveling to earth.

vs. 15 The talents are skills. People come to earth with different abilities. Some are good at Math, and others at music.

vs. 16-18 The servants are now on earth. Some are using the talents they have and some aren't.

vs. 19 The servants all die

vs 20-23 The servants are what they become rulers over is unclear.

vs 24-25 One servant didn't improve the talent he had.

vs 26-27 Servant should have increased his talents.

vs. 28-29 Gave the one talent to the servant with 10. He will be coming to earth with 11 talents now.

[Bede]

[Replying to post 6 by Bede]
Taking the questions in reverse order: Lazarus and the rich man is a parable, not really something to base doctrine upon.

Parables are a teaching vehicle not mere story telling.

I agree and since Jesus gave several "kingdom of Heaven" parables he's the only one who actually claimed to know anything about the afterlife. He gave the following parable. It's repeated several times but I'll give the Matthew one here. I will be interpreting it based on my belief in reincarnation. I need you to interpret it based on your understanding of the afterlife.

MT 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far
country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his
goods.
MT 25:15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to
another one; to every man according to his several ability; and
straightway took his journey.
MT 25:16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded
with the same, and made them other five talents.
MT 25:17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other
two.
MT 25:18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth,
and hid his lord's money.
MT 25:19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and
reckoneth with them.
MT 25:20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought
other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents:
behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
MT 25:21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful
servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee
ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
MT 25:22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord,
thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other
talents beside them.
MT 25:23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant;
thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over
many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
MT 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said,
Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast
not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
MT 25:25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo,
there thou hast that is thine.
MT 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and
slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and
gather where I have not strawed:
MT 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the
exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own
with usury.
MT 25:28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him
which hath ten talents.
MT 25:29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall
have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even
that which he hath.
MT 25:30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

vs. 14 The man traveling to a far country would be the Watchers (mentioned in the Book of Daniel) who are in charge of the earth. He isn't actually traveling anywhere but the servants are traveling to earth.

vs. 15 The talents are skills. People come to earth with different abilities. Some are good at Math, and others at music.

vs. 16-18 The servants are now on earth. Some are using the talents they have and some aren't.

vs. 19 The servants all die

vs 20-23 The servants are what they become rulers over is unclear.

vs 24-25 One servant didn't improve the talent he had.

vs 26-27 Servant should have increased his talents.

vs. 28-29 Gave the one talent to the servant with 10. He will be coming to earth with 11 talents now.

That parable is not about the afterlife.

[sleepyhead]

Hello b.e.d.e

The parable is about individuals coming to earth with so many latent abilities, there efforts at using these abilities, and there eventual death where they are rewarded with more natural abilities for their next incarnation either on earth or on some other planet. At least tell me what you think the talents represent.

[Bede]

Hello b.e.d.e

The parable is about individuals coming to earth with so many latent abilities, there efforts at using these abilities, and there eventual death where they are rewarded with more natural abilities for their next incarnation either on earth or on some other planet. At least tell me what you think the talents represent.

To understand Mt 25:14-30 you need to look at the whole context of this section of Jesus’ teaching.

In Mt 23:37-39 Jesus laments over Jerusalem and says: “For I tell you, you will not see me again, until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'"

Then at the begining of chapter 24 he foretells the destruction of the Temple and the disciples ask him “Tell us, when will this be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the close of the age?�.

From then on until the end of chapter 26 it’s about the end of the world and the final jusgement:

The great tribulation (24:15-28)
The coming of Jesus (24:29-31)
The lesson of the fig tree (24:32-35)
No-one knows when exactly this will happen (24:36)
But it will be sudden and unexpected (24:37-41)
So be prepared and stay awake (24:38-44)

And then a series of parables warning them to be ready and use their time profitably:
The faithful & unfaithful servant (24:45-51) waiting for their master’s (Jesus) return
The ten virgins waiting for the coming of the bridegroom (Jesus) (25:1-13)
The parable of the talents waiting for the master’s (Jesus) return (25:14-30)

Finally Jesus returns and the final judgement occurs (25:31-46).

This is nothing about people being re-incarnated. The only person going and coming back is Jesus.

[InTheFlesh]

1Cor.15

[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Job.19

[26] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

How can the body be destroyed and then return InTheFlesh without reincarnation?

[Bede]

1Cor.15

[44] It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

Job.19

[26] And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:

How can the body be destroyed and then return InTheFlesh without reincarnation?

Resurrection.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 6 by Bede]

Haredi Jews are a relatively new sect in Judaism so their beliefs are irrelevant.

On the contrary, these Ultra-orthodox Jews hold to the original traditions that the merely Orthodox let slide.

No evidence in the NT? Apparently someone posted without reading the OP!

I answered the OP in an earlier post. This post that you are criticising was in response to to a point raised by sleepyhead

I have deleted any responses that are mere denials or otherwise unsupported and unsupportable. Any earlier responses were similarly apodictic and not substantial.

[InTheFlesh]

[Replying to Bede]

"Resurrection."

Exactly!
Reincarnation is not used in the bible.
My definition of reincarnation is coming back InTheFlesh...

Luke.24

[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

I am not implying that we will be carnally minded, rather the contrary.

[sleepyhead]

Hello Bede,

In looking at the verses it would appear that you are correct in that Jesus will be the going away and then returning.
One of the servants who started with 5 talents increased it to ten and then he was given another talent. If you are correct that we only come to earth once then what is he going to do with the 11 talents? Will the servant who only has 4 be prevented from getting more talents?

[Bede]

[Replying to Bede]

"Resurrection."

Exactly!
Reincarnation is not used in the bible.
My definition of reincarnation is coming back InTheFlesh...

Luke.24

[39] Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have

I am not implying that we will be carnally minded, rather the contrary.

Resurrection is into flesh but not quite as we know it. It is our old body transformed.

Re-incarnation, as generally understood, is the soul coming into a new human body sometime between conception and birth; a body with different characteristics, perhaps a different sex, even a different species in some versions.