Reincarnation and the Bible

[amptramp]

In John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

It is always fun to see Biblical literalists tap-dance around that statement.

and in Matthew 17:12-13

"But I tell you Elijah has come and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.

whereas we already know that John was born shortly before Jesus in Luke 1:44

"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

So we know that John the Baptist had a normal birth near the time of Jesus' birth but that he had been Elijah and Jesus had told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. This seems to point to a literal rebirth rather than a figurative change in life. It appears that reincarnation (which was also preached by Origen among other leaders of the early church) has been eliminated from the doctrine. I believe reincarnation and the doctrine of karma is the only way to understand that none of the law shall pass away for each individual and that there is an actual consequence rather than a go / no-go gauging of each person at the end of life.

Anyone ready to comment on this?

[amptramp]

It is not just after your first death you are judged - it is after each death. The lessons you learn determine what your lives will be like in the future where God visits iniquity on the third and fourth subsequent incarnations. The next incarnation is spent learning the lessons needed by the soul to make use of what is coming. In the next incarnation, I might not be the same gender, the same race, the same nationality or the same religion.

The law of karma supersedes religion and whereas people may not understand why good or evil has befallen them, their souls understand because they see the entire path. It is like a piece of cloth where you see one stitch then another stitch and they appear to be separate but they are all the same thread.

I could be born Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or of any of the religions in the world. One would have to believe in a psychopathic God if there was only one true belief that the person had to accept. As Paul said, we see through a glass darkly and therefore there is no reason to accept one religion as the true religion or as having bought up all the front-row seats in heaven. Only a psychopathic God would provide infinite punishment for finite sin, especially if there was no opportunity in one life to learn what is correct.

If you stole from someone in one life, you can expect to suffer a burglary in another. The person does not see any connection but the soul does because it is aware of every incarnation. If you gave to charity in one life, you may be rescued from poverty by a charity in another. And as Jesus said, not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass away, meaning the law of karma.

Now there is another way of looking at it: lives lived like a relay race. If one runner in the group does exceptionally well or badly, he influences the outcome even though his part of the race is over by the time the last runner takes to the track. An exceptionally good or bad life can reverberate through multiple lives. I have more of an incentive to do what is right and avoid what is wrong because I know it will come back to me at some point.

[Daddieslittlehelper]

It is not just after your first death you are judged - it is after each death. The lessons you learn determine what your lives will be like in the future where God visits iniquity on the third and fourth subsequent incarnations. The next incarnation is spent learning the lessons needed by the soul to make use of what is coming. In the next incarnation, I might not be the same gender, the same race, the same nationality or the same religion.

The law of karma supersedes religion and whereas people may not understand why good or evil has befallen them, their souls understand because they see the entire path. It is like a piece of cloth where you see one stitch then another stitch and they appear to be separate but they are all the same thread.

I could be born Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist or of any of the religions in the world. One would have to believe in a psychopathic God if there was only one true belief that the person had to accept. As Paul said, we see through a glass darkly and therefore there is no reason to accept one religion as the true religion or as having bought up all the front-row seats in heaven. Only a psychopathic God would provide infinite punishment for finite sin, especially if there was no opportunity in one life to learn what is correct.

If you stole from someone in one life, you can expect to suffer a burglary in another. The person does not see any connection but the soul does because it is aware of every incarnation. If you gave to charity in one life, you may be rescued from poverty by a charity in another. And as Jesus said, not one jot or tittle of the law shall pass away, meaning the law of karma.

Now there is another way of looking at it: lives lived like a relay race. If one runner in the group does exceptionally well or badly, he influences the outcome even though his part of the race is over by the time the last runner takes to the track. An exceptionally good or bad life can reverberate through multiple lives. I have more of an incentive to do what is right and avoid what is wrong because I know it will come back to me at some point.

Well it´s all a very nice idea, but what scripture are you basing these statements on? If you are going to say something like ´we are judged after each death´- you need to support your statement, with scripture- if you cant find any to support the idea then you shouldn´t be suggesting it.

And there is no such thing as Karma- if Karma was real the universe and our world would be completly just and our world is not! It is for man to administer justice on the earth, not the "univese" or whatever it is you think administers Karma.

[JehovahsWitness]

In John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Anyone ready to comment on this?

Jesus was refering to those that would be born (or anointed) with holy spirit, not to literally reentering your mother as an adult (which would kill her).


JEHOVAH'S WITNESSS

[ttruscott]

In John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Anyone ready to comment on this?

Jesus was referring to those that would be born (or anointed) with holy spirit, not to literally reentering your mother as an adult (which would kill her).

Nor the introduction of their spirit into a new body...

Jesus and Nicodemus
John 3:5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 "That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

which tells us that we must be born again IN THE SPIRIT and that you do not get the Spirit from a being born in the flesh, v6. To be reborn into the flesh as per reincarnation is to not be reborn at all into the Spirit and misses the importance of this teaching.

[amptramp]

[Replying to post 44 by ttruscott]

I have a family tree that is known for many generations on my mother's side and a few on my father's side. In this sense, I am born of flesh. I have their genetically combined characteristics.

I also have a spiritual side that has gone from incarnation to incarnation and in this sense I am born of spirit. My spirit is not very much like my parents' spirit and my thought processes may have some similarity due to their influence but not as a result of being genetically made of them. In many ways, my personality and character are decidedly unlike theirs.

This is not an either/or proposition. Everyone is born of both flesh and spirit, even those who are on their first incarnation. Jesus was pointing out the distinction between flesh (the familial bond) and spirit (what each person brings to the life). As Jesus says, the body is somewhat inconsequential, it is the spirit that permits someone to enter into the kingdom of God. There used to be a theory that everyone is born Tabula Rasa or "clean slate". Even among medical people with no regard for religion or dogma, this view has been largely abandoned. Pediatric nurses always saw the differences and doctors finally followed suit, so Tabula Rasa is no longer regarded as true because people appear to be born different and to diverge from there. This refers to spirit, the discernible differences in personality and character in each person. And the spirit grows and learns from life to life. I see nothing that would disagree with John 3:5 in this view.

[marco]

In John 3:3
In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

Reincarnation is no less absurd than physical resurrection - perhaps much less ridiculous since, if we believe that we have some spirit part to our being, it is possible that it goes elsewhere, whatever it is. Atoms aren't destroyed -the atoms of Julius Caesar are around somewhere and may have ended up in the head of an American President, retaining just a grain of Caesar's memory. Far fetched? Maybe.

There have been many surveys on under-5 children who appear to have knowledge they shouldn't possess; no doubt there are explanations, but one is reincarnation. The mechanics of a soul passing into another body are not known to doctors, but that does not say a lot. Pythagoras, whose mathematics we still admire, believed in the transmigration of souls - human spirit moving into the body of an animal. The reverse would explain some of the savagery we see nowadays.

It is funny to note how many can take this proposition of reincarnation and laugh it to scorn and then turn a few biblical pages and marvel gullibly at the raising of Lazarus, when his corpse had already started to decompose.

Jesus, arguably, knew but chose to restrict his instruction to the dubious botany of mustard seeds and such weighty matters. It was left to a chance find to give us penicillin - could Jesus have guided us? The man who cured lepers could have whispered the cure to someone. And he could have told us exactly what to expect at the hour of our death, other than judgement, judgement, judgement and gnashing of teeth. The atoms of Christ may also be scattered around the Middle East, unless we believe he's in the Milky Way. And someone may be their proud possessor.

[Yahu]

And there is no such thing as Karma- if Karma was real the universe and our world would be completly just and our world is not! It is for man to administer justice on the earth, not the "univese" or whatever it is you think administers Karma.

I disagree. Karma IMO is just a reference to the concept that you reap what you sow which is definitely a biblical concept.

[amptramp]

Sorry for the necropost but I have recently finished a book called "The Lost Years of Jesus" by Elizabeth Claire Prophet which covers the seventeen years from age 12 to 29 that were not covered in any of the writings from within the Roman empire. In this, it is stated that Jesus traveled to India, Tibet and Ladakh. His time in India was quite dangerous - he spoke out against the caste system and had to escape, similar to Paul's escape recorded in his travels. On page 277, Jesus is reported to have said about some skilled singers in Ladakh:

"Whence is their talent and their power? For in one short life they could not possibly accumulate a quality of voice and the knowledge of harmony and of tone. Are these miracles? No, because all things take place as a result of natural laws. Many thousands of years ago, these people already molded their harmonies and their qualities. And they come again to learn still more from varied manifestations."

This is preserved in a document in a temple in Ladakh. Jesus was known and revered throughout the east as Saint Issa and there have been some documentaries about this on TV. The book is from Summit University Press and is dated 1984.

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