Reincarnation and the Bible

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amptramp
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Reincarnation and the Bible

Post #1

Post by amptramp »

In John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

It is always fun to see Biblical literalists tap-dance around that statement.

and in Matthew 17:12-13

"But I tell you Elijah has come and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.


whereas we already know that John was born shortly before Jesus in Luke 1:44

"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

So we know that John the Baptist had a normal birth near the time of Jesus' birth but that he had been Elijah and Jesus had told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. This seems to point to a literal rebirth rather than a figurative change in life. It appears that reincarnation (which was also preached by Origen among other leaders of the early church) has been eliminated from the doctrine. I believe reincarnation and the doctrine of karma is the only way to understand that none of the law shall pass away for each individual and that there is an actual consequence rather than a go / no-go gauging of each person at the end of life.

Anyone ready to comment on this?

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Post #31

Post by amptramp »

Let's compare a couple of lines from the King James Version: Revelation 13:9,10

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

with the equivalent from the New International Version:

9 He who has an ear, let him hear.

10 If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.


Various sources will show that the KJV was translated by five people. One would be given prime responsibility for translating a certain portion and this translation would be circulated around to the other four for verification. There is only one problem: we all know it doesn't happen the way they translated this excerpt.

Early Christians never saw Roman emperors dying the way this predicted. In modern times, there is the example of Reza Pahlavi, the "Shaw of Iran", a puppet governor of Iran set up in 1953 by the CIA and MI-6 when the legally elected head of state, Mohammed Mossadegh, wanted to raise oil prices. Mossadegh was placed under house arrest until his death in 1967 and his foreign minister was killed. The Shaw immediately imprisoned, tortured and killed thousands of Mossadegh followers. Yet he died peacefully, surrounded by family. So there was a problem. Without reincarnation, none of this made any sense. So the NIV and several other translations went to the second translation which changed the meaning from cause-and-effect to deterministic fatalism; if it's going to happen, it's going to happen. The key is verse nine in both cases: it states that this is written in code and is not intended to be taken as happening according to the normal denotation of the words.

BTW I have read both Bible versions cover to cover and this is the main discrepancy.

Once again, the iniquity is visited on the third and fourth incarnation as explained in the ten commandments (to allow intervening lives where the necessary lessons have to be learned). If you kill in one life, you are killed in another. If you take prisoners in one life, you are taken prisoner in another life.

A bit of the code can be deciphered in Revelation 3:12

12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

"and he shall go no more out" means he shall have no more earthly incarnations - the phrasing implies that this is something that is repeated until it ends, like commuting until he retires. At this point, he has learned everything God expected him to do in this world and he moves on.

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Post #32

Post by Willum »

I can see what you are saying about multiple "born agains," very clever observation.

Here's another, the difference between resurrection and reincarnation is time.
If I only have two or three reincarnations, I am resurrected.
If I have one or two resurrections, then I have a very uninteresting reincarnation.

So resurrection IS reincarnation with a very long period.

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Daddieslittlehelper
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Re: Reincarnation and the Bible

Post #33

Post by Daddieslittlehelper »

amptramp wrote: In John 3:3

In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the Kingdom of God unless he is born again."

It is always fun to see Biblical literalists tap-dance around that statement.

and in Matthew 17:12-13

"But I tell you Elijah has come and they did not recognize him, but have done to him everything they wished. In the same way the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands."

Then the disciples understood that he was talking to them about John the Baptist.


whereas we already know that John was born shortly before Jesus in Luke 1:44

"As soon as the sound of your greeting reached my ears the baby in my womb leaped for joy."

So we know that John the Baptist had a normal birth near the time of Jesus' birth but that he had been Elijah and Jesus had told Nicodemus that he had to be born again. This seems to point to a literal rebirth rather than a figurative change in life. It appears that reincarnation (which was also preached by Origen among other leaders of the early church) has been eliminated from the doctrine. I believe reincarnation and the doctrine of karma is the only way to understand that none of the law shall pass away for each individual and that there is an actual consequence rather than a go / no-go gauging of each person at the end of life.

Anyone ready to comment on this?
An interesting one for reincarnation is:-

1 Samuel 2:6
“The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the sheol and raises up.

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amptramp
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Post #34

Post by amptramp »

Good find! I missed that one.

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Re: Reincarnation and the Bible

Post #35

Post by Willum »

Daddieslittlehelper wrote:
1 Samuel 2:6
“The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the sheol and raises up.
Here's another good one you missed:
Dr. Patrick Kochanek brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the sheol and raises up.
I bet you didn't know there is modern proof of the resurrection.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/06/28 ... -dogs.html

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Re: Reincarnation and the Bible

Post #36

Post by Daddieslittlehelper »

Willum wrote:
Daddieslittlehelper wrote:
1 Samuel 2:6
“The Lord brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the sheol and raises up.
Here's another good one you missed:
Dr. Patrick Kochanek brings death and makes alive; he brings down to the sheol and raises up.
I bet you didn't know there is modern proof of the resurrection.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/2005/06/28 ... -dogs.html
Yeah reincarnation is a Soul comming back to earth in another body. Hence brings down to sheol and raises up from sheol.

It´s the soul that goes to sheol and is raised up again. Just a question as to wether a soul is raised in a new body or in the old one. Both are possible, on the day of judgement, all the dead will come out of sheol, in their old or last bodies.

Certainly many Jews believe in reincarnation, as do many other faiths like Hinduism. Reincarnation does not oppose the idea of the Judgement actually it would mean that people have more then one chance at living a life and living better.

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Post #37

Post by amptramp »

Certainly 1 Samuel 2:6 could be invoked to prove reincarnation, but it could also be used to explain Lazarus rising from the dead, so it is not clear which this is.

I have always seen the soul as making use of a body, like getting a rental car on a business trip then turning it in at the end of the trip then getting a different one on your next trip. I have a body, but I don't identify with my body.

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Re: Reincarnation and the Bible

Post #38

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 35 by Willum]

I need to apologize for this post: I clearly mixed up which forum I was in, I don't often venture into "Theology, Doctrine and Theology."

Please forgive/delete my previous post, if possible.
?

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Post #39

Post by Daddieslittlehelper »

amptramp wrote: Certainly 1 Samuel 2:6 could be invoked to prove reincarnation, but it could also be used to explain Lazarus rising from the dead, so it is not clear which this is.

I have always seen the soul as making use of a body, like getting a rental car on a business trip then turning it in at the end of the trip then getting a different one on your next trip. I have a body, but I don't identify with my body.

Yeah Jesus doesnt really like having a body either. You can see Jesus really prefers a purely spiritual existence. And would rather be in heaven then on earth with a psyical body.

But I suppose Jesus is in a very unique position, I mean he is given a body, from mary and wisdom- but born fully aware of who he is, must be a really interesting experience, to come from heaven in to a body, be born, grow up and remember the whole process, and more then just remember that process, be completly aware of the difference between psyical and spiritual existence- to say life as a spiritual being and life in a psyical body. It comes across a few times to me when jesus Speaks that he really finds life with a psyical body restirctive, I sometimes really get the feeling when I listen to Jesus that he find life in a body, like a weight. - it´s a feeling I get.

But Jesus is in a unique position in this sense, no one else has ever really be born in complete awareness of both realities.

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Post #40

Post by ttruscott »

Bede wrote: The book of Hebrews says:
"And just as it is appointed for men to die once, and after that comes judgment, so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (Heb 9:27-28)
This verse doesn't say that after one death no more life but that on your first death, you are judged.

It points out the lie of the spiritual evolutionary aspect of reincarnation, not saying it is not so but claiming it does no one any good.

I know that salvation is only found in HIS grace bringing us to Christ and since I also know that one lifetime is enough for GOD to bring anyone to Christ (either a short or a long life) then I wonder why we should believe that HE needs more than one life to reach some people? There is just no need to consider that HIS sinful elect need to reincarnate.

Since I know the nations of goats will join Satan in the Lake of Fire I wonder if their numbers are not greatly skewed by their reincarnation as they claim they know they experience? Maybe they do reincarnate (and have hung a futile hope on the experience) which would mean there are not so many of them as it looks like since they are recycled over and over.
PCE Theology as I see it...

We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.

This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.

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