Is hell eternal or not?

[scorpia]

Just a couple of references;

2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .

This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....

Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

This verse is similair

Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

[joer]

Bernee, I like your post. I agree with you.

As the veil of error in our decissions is removed we find as you mentioned from Paul.

God in us and us in God. Without all the error clouding us our vision. We see that a world without error (sin) is what we were supposed to have.

And that is what we can strive to achieve and maintain.

I'd like to see YouthPastor's response.

Peace be with you.

[Truth101]

Infinite punishment is too great a punishment no matter what the crime. Even if you killed a million people, infinite punishment is billions and billions of times out of proportion.

And some people believe capital punishment is too harsh as well.

How would anyone know what anyone deserves? God alone knows. And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell. It's what the price of sin is, isn't it? People can get out, but they turn their back on him. So what else is he supposed to do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but does this not sound a little fishy? What you are implying is that mankind can ultimately leave God with no choice.

Lets see,

1: God gives man the very thing that will send billions of billions of people to burn for all eternity....FREEWILL.

2: The bible says that Gods will is above all wills. (I take this to mean in power).

3: Ultimately this theology says that mans will is far above Gods will and God cannot do anything about that. So because God is powerless to save these free moral agents He then figures He won't just destroy them by anihilation but He will eternally torment them in literal fire. Again, God is powerless to even be humane and finally annihilate them.

4: The bible says that God is love. That is until His judgment kicks in at which time His wrath takes over completely.

5: So, mans measily short duration of sin is justly recompensed with eternity in torment?

6: If sinners are destined to be seperated from God for an eternity, where exactly will that be since everything has its beginning duration and ending in God? NOthing can exist without His direct presence. Creation itself has its cohesion in Christ, so, how can this place of eternal torment exist without Him?

This is just a few problems with the doctrine of eternal punishment. What defence could there possibly be for an apparent biblical theology such as this?

God Bless, Dave

[achilles12604]

Infinite punishment is too great a punishment no matter what the crime. Even if you killed a million people, infinite punishment is billions and billions of times out of proportion.

And some people believe capital punishment is too harsh as well.

How would anyone know what anyone deserves? God alone knows. And he isn't exactly rooting that everybody go to hell. It's what the price of sin is, isn't it? People can get out, but they turn their back on him. So what else is he supposed to do?

Correct me if I'm wrong but does this not sound a little fishy? What you are implying is that mankind can ultimately leave God with no choice.

I don't want to answer for Scorpia, so understand I am only adding in my comment. You analysis is exactly what I think holds true. God set up the rules. There are specific punishments in place which must be adhered to. Humans fit the criteria for punishment. Hence God must act.

The alternative would be that God would have to go back on his own rules which would make him fallible. Since he can not be fallible, he is left with no choice but to act.

Lets see,

1: God gives man the very thing that will send billions of billions of people to burn for all eternity....FREEWILL.

Ah but free will is the key to the whole meaning of the human race. Without it we could not chose to love and obey God. So it was originally a tool that was meant to be used for good. But like other tools (gunpowder, genetics, etc) it has been turned into something evil.

2: The bible says that Gods will is above all wills. (I take this to mean in power).

I take this as meaning in importance. God's will is more important than any others. But it is not overriding by gods own choice.

3: Ultimately this theology says that mans will is far above Gods will and God cannot do anything about that. So because God is powerless to save these free moral agents He then figures He won't just destroy them by anihilation but He will eternally torment them in literal fire. Again, God is powerless to even be humane and finally annihilate them.

On the contrary, God does have the power to change our outcomes. Jesus came and died in our place. Hence God himself directly intervened to alter our course towards hell. Now if we chose to sit in the river flowing towards the waterfall rather than getting off in the eddy, then that choice is hardly God's fault.

4: The bible says that God is love. That is until His judgment kicks in at which time His wrath takes over completely.

It also says that God is Just, Holy, righteous, pure and many other things. Don't get fixated on just one point.

5: So, mans measily short duration of sin is justly recompensed with eternity in torment?

How long does it take for a bullet to enter another body and kill them? Now compare this time to a lifetime in jail or better yet to the death penalty. Duration of crime vs punishment arn't even the same here on earth. Why should we hold God to standards we dont even meet?

6: If sinners are destined to be seperated from God for an eternity, where exactly will that be since everything has its beginning duration and ending in God? NOthing can exist without His direct presence. Creation itself has its cohesion in Christ, so, how can this place of eternal torment exist without Him?

Is there some rule I am unaware of where God is unable to remove his presence from someone or something? After all even Jesus felt this seclusion while he was taking our sins on the cross. "My God, My God why have you forsaken me?"

God would no longer look on Jesus because he was now the enbodiment of our sins.

This is just a few problems with the doctrine of eternal punishment. What defence could there possibly be for an apparent biblical theology such as this?

How bout the ones I offered?

[Truth101]

McCulloch said:

If I were a potter and made a vessel that did not please me, I would destroy that vessel. Vessels are not alive so we need another metaphor.

I am a believer in universal reconciliation myself and would just like to comment on a few things you stated. First of all, scripture, when speaking of the potter molding vessels of honor and vessels of dishonor, He is not stating that He molds and some come out either way by accident. These are made either vessels of honor or dishonor. Does He destroy them? No! They are left to be until He reforms them (reformation). The vessels of honor were made for the purpose of expressing His glory and power and Godhead while the vessels of dishonor were made for the express purpose of expressing His wrath and judgment. This all amounts to God revealing all characterisitics of Himself to His creation.

If I were a rancher and I had an untrainable horse. The horse has no value to me, it will not do my will. If I put that horse into a smoldering fire so that it remains conscious but in torment for the rest of its life, you would rightly call me sadistic. So what else am I supposed to do?
Is this is a difficult question? Is it really that hard to come up with alternatives to eternal torment? Come on!

I agree with your sarcasm. It is impossible to justify this view of God. Does this theology glorify God or does it slander His name (LOVE)?

For the benefit of any cognitively impaired deities, here is a partial list:

1. Annihilation - those beings who live out their lives without gaining redemption shall cease to exist.

A better step toward humane but is still in question when Gods will is in brought up. Scripture states "it is not the will of the Father that any should parish". This method would fail to reconcile this. If it is not the will of the Father and yet happens anyway than Gods will is once again overpowered.

[*]Universal redemption - Love them anyway. Just as I am. Redeem your divine sacrifice even for those who have rejected it. Why not?

I believe in universal redemption but it is not in the way you stated it. Although God does eventually reconcile all to Himself, it is not done "just as they are". It is all a transformation that takes place whether in this life or through the fire. There is not one word in the Hebrew or Greek which implies timelessness. The fire is temporal and performs the work it is required to do. It chastizes until it purifies. Even a human parent knows what punishment to use on their own child to teach the child to do good. How much more does God know of His human creation? "If any mans work be burned, he shall suffer loss (of reward), BUT, he himself shall be saved, as through fire.

[*]Reincarnation - give them another chance to get it right. [/list]

[/quote]If we're are speaking 100% scriptural this is just not a scriptural term. There is not even a hint of the idea of reincarnation. I understand you are making a point here and not that you believe in this. I am just addressing the thought of it. I agree, it would be another step up from endless torment. Infact, you just offered 3 other choices and I am sure that God, if eternal torment was true could have thought up countless other methods.

God Bless, Dave

[MagusYanam]

I take this as meaning in importance. God's will is more important than any others. But it is not overriding by gods own choice.

Careful. God's will is more important than any other, but also more persistent. Human wills are more easily swayed than God's, and we know that it is God's will that all people realise the grace that has been offered them. If we believe that the soul is eternal, what is to stop God from helping people to realise that grace even after death? What we see in this life is only a broken, imperfect piece of a perfect whole - something many people often forget. At the same time, we pray, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

On the contrary, God does have the power to change our outcomes. Jesus came and died in our place. Hence God himself directly intervened to alter our course towards hell. Now if we chose to sit in the river flowing towards the waterfall rather than getting off in the eddy, then that choice is hardly God's fault.

O ye of little faith. Don't you think that God is still working in the world to save us from our own shortcomings? God's role is not such a passive one that he would throw a single bucket of water onto a burning building where we were all trapped, then give up and say, 'Well, I did my part, the rest is up to them'.

It also says that God is Just, Holy, righteous, pure and many other things. Don't get fixated on just one point.

All these points are related to God's love. Justice, holiness, righteousness all are dependent upon some kind of fellow-feeling that God demonstrated in Christ Jesus, and that fellow-feeling was love. (Call it compassion, self-sacrifice, mercy, grace, whatever you will, it all comes down to love in the end.) As to God's purity, it is not in the demands he makes upon us (though demands he certainly does make). God's purity is a cleansing one - through Jesus' life, death and resurrection God's purity makes us pure as well, faulty and faltering though we are without him.

How long does it take for a bullet to enter another body and kill them? Now compare this time to a lifetime in jail or better yet to the death penalty. Duration of crime vs punishment arn't even the same here on earth. Why should we hold God to standards we dont even meet?

Well, nobody's perfect. Except God, of course.

God's perfection is not something we can expect, let alone comprehend - it is still wrong to think of it in human terms. Again, human justice falters and fails long, long before God's, and the justice we receive at the final hour may be expected to be perfect. I often think of God's justice as the refiner's fire - he shall find what is worthy in each of us and keep it, regardless of whatever burden of dross with which we come before it.

This is just a few problems with the doctrine of eternal punishment. What defence could there possibly be for an apparent biblical theology such as this?

How bout the ones I offered?

It still seems you're not taking Holy Scripture seriously. The mysteries of the eschatology are great, and not amenable to whatever clumsy analogies you or I may make. But I'm still of the opinion that God wastes nothing - even a soul wanting direction after death, and there is Scriptural support aplenty for such a belief.

[joer]

This is just a few problems with the doctrine of eternal punishment. What defence could there possibly be for an apparent biblical theology such as this?

God Bless, Dave

I agree Dave. Defending the concept of a vengeful rathful God after all that Jesus taught us about a LOVING Merciful God. Is kind of a hard pill to swallow. So I stick my man made hell concept from P.2 of this thread. And I'll add this for ALL the Hell Fire and Brimstone believers:

A reading from the letter of Paul
to the Romans 8:31-39


If God is for us, who can be against us? He who did not spare his own Son, but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? Who will bring a charge against God’s chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. Who will condemn? It was Christ Jesus who died rather was raised who is also at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.

What will separate us from the Love of Christ? Will anguish, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or the sword? No, in all these things we conquer overwhelmingly through him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor present things, nor future things, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Word of the Lord.

The only way we're going to HELL what ever it is, is by our own choice.

God ain't sending us there. I truly believe Our Father Loves us and nothing can separate us from that Love. His Love is greater than the worst SIN we can commit. It's only our own self condemnation through Free Will that will keep us from the Peace and Joy of His Love.

Amen. so it is - so it may be

[McCulloch]

[...]
The only way we're going to HELL what ever it is, is by our own choice.

God ain't sending us there. I truly believe Our Father Loves us and nothing can separate us from that Love. His Love is greater than the worst SIN we can commit. It's only our own self condemnation through Free Will that will keep us from the Peace and Joy of His Love.

However, Christians teach that those who do not know and acknowledge Jesus Christ as saviour, in their lifetime are condemned to eternal hell. If, after I die, I still exist in a spiritual way and see the evidence the God exists and loves me, why should I then be sent by that God to eternal torment?

[joer]

[...]
The only way we're going to HELL what ever it is, is by our own choice.

God ain't sending us there. I truly believe Our Father Loves us and nothing can separate us from that Love. His Love is greater than the worst SIN we can commit. It's only our own self condemnation through Free Will that will keep us from the Peace and Joy of His Love.

However, Christians teach that those who do not know and acknowledge Jesus Christ as saviour, in their lifetime are condemned to eternal hell. If, after I die, I still exist in a spiritual way and see the evidence the God exists and loves me, why should I then be sent by that God to eternal torment?

Exactly my point! Why would you be sent there by a loving GOD. And what about all those souls of people who never heard or knew of Christ. Like I'm sure a lOving God is going to comdenm them also to eternal torment. NOT

I'm sure when you die McCulloch as well as myself and all others, we'll be able to "SEE" things in a "New Light" as I believe or We won't be seeing anything at all as my atheist brothers and sisters believe. Either way the veil of illusion will be removed.

[achilles12604]

I take this as meaning in importance. God's will is more important than any others. But it is not overriding by gods own choice.

Careful. God's will is more important than any other, but also more persistent. Human wills are more easily swayed than God's, and we know that it is God's will that all people realise the grace that has been offered them. If we believe that the soul is eternal, what is to stop God from helping people to realise that grace even after death? What we see in this life is only a broken, imperfect piece of a perfect whole - something many people often forget. At the same time, we pray, thy Kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.

True. All true. But perhaps you misunderstood my point. I did not intend to say that God's will falters. I pointed out that his will is more important than ours. IE our will should bend to his, hence your last sentence here. However, my other point is that while God's will is more "true" or important or pure or whatever than ours, he does not force his will onto us. He allows us to exercise our wills over his if we so chose.

On the contrary, God does have the power to change our outcomes. Jesus came and died in our place. Hence God himself directly intervened to alter our course towards hell. Now if we chose to sit in the river flowing towards the waterfall rather than getting off in the eddy, then that choice is hardly God's fault.

O ye of little faith. Don't you think that God is still working in the world to save us from our own shortcomings? God's role is not such a passive one that he would throw a single bucket of water onto a burning building where we were all trapped, then give up and say, 'Well, I did my part, the rest is up to them'.

Oh not at all. I both believe and see God working today to reach people. After all I am part of a street ministry. I see it everyday. I meant that if someone is flat out refusing to allow God into their lives, God isn't going to force them out of the stream. There is a huge difference between reaching out so help, and forcing himself into their lives unwelcome.

It also says that God is Just, Holy, righteous, pure and many other things. Don't get fixated on just one point.

All these points are related to God's love. Justice, holiness, righteousness all are dependent upon some kind of fellow-feeling that God demonstrated in Christ Jesus, and that fellow-feeling was love. (Call it compassion, self-sacrifice, mercy, grace, whatever you will, it all comes down to love in the end.) As to God's purity, it is not in the demands he makes upon us (though demands he certainly does make). God's purity is a cleansing one - through Jesus' life, death and resurrection God's purity makes us pure as well, faulty and faltering though we are without him.

Again all true. This however is no excuse for when someone says, "God shouldn't punish anyone if he is really all love." They are missing the rest of the attributes of God and looking for an excuse.

How long does it take for a bullet to enter another body and kill them? Now compare this time to a lifetime in jail or better yet to the death penalty. Duration of crime vs punishment arn't even the same here on earth. Why should we hold God to standards we dont even meet?

Well, nobody's perfect. Except God, of course.

God's perfection is not something we can expect, let alone comprehend - it is still wrong to think of it in human terms. Again, human justice falters and fails long, long before God's, and the justice we receive at the final hour may be expected to be perfect. I often think of God's justice as the refiner's fire - he shall find what is worthy in each of us and keep it, regardless of whatever burden of dross with which we come before it.

Ok . . . I'm not sure that we are on the same page here. I am giving an analogy for those that say the punishment should fit the crime. When they say that being punished for a long time for a crime that only took a lifetime, I pointed out that time is not a factor in punishment even here on earth. If someone rebels against God for their entire lives, why should they be accpeted into his house upon their death? I find it interesting that the non-theists that complain about God's banishment see no problem with a person that choses not to invite their lifelong enemy over for dinner and to stay the night.

Yes God grace can forgive any sin. However if that person is still in rebellion at the time of their death, why should God chose to accept and forgive someone who is actively refusing forgiveness and continuing in rebellion. This would make God a bit of a wimp wouldn't it?

This is just a few problems with the doctrine of eternal punishment. What defence could there possibly be for an apparent biblical theology such as this?

How bout the ones I offered?

It still seems you're not taking Holy Scripture seriously. The mysteries of the eschatology are great, and not amenable to whatever clumsy analogies you or I may make. But I'm still of the opinion that God wastes nothing - even a soul wanting direction after death, and there is Scriptural support aplenty for such a belief.

What scriptures am I missing? Jesus talks at length about those who continue to rebell being cast out of God's presence. On the contrary, I take the scriptures at face value. I simply read and believe accordingly.

[achilles12604]

[...]
The only way we're going to HELL what ever it is, is by our own choice.

God ain't sending us there. I truly believe Our Father Loves us and nothing can separate us from that Love. His Love is greater than the worst SIN we can commit. It's only our own self condemnation through Free Will that will keep us from the Peace and Joy of His Love.

However, Christians teach that those who do not know and acknowledge Jesus Christ as saviour, in their lifetime are condemned to eternal hell. If, after I die, I still exist in a spiritual way and see the evidence the God exists and loves me, why should I then be sent by that God to eternal torment?

Exactly my point! Why would you be sent there by a loving GOD. And what about all those souls of people who never heard or knew of Christ. Like I'm sure a lOving God is going to comdenm them also to eternal torment. NOT

I'm sure when you die McCulloch as well as myself and all others, we'll be able to "SEE" things in a "New Light" as I believe or We won't be seeing anything at all as my atheist brothers and sisters believe. Either way the veil of illusion will be removed.

So let me get this straight. You think that God should have no rules that must be followed? He should have no consequences for those in rebellion to him? He should simply ignore the choices of the individual made here on earth just so you will acknowledge that he is loving?

This opinion sounds like something I have heard from children (some as old as Paris Hilton). If you really love me you'll give me what I want. Daddy, give me a horsie.

As for those people who have never heard of Christ, logic would dictate that since a rejection of God sould necesitate knowledge, they would be given another set of rules to follow. Jesus said those who didn't know the rules of the master, even if they still committed attrocities and evil behavior, would not be punished severly. Sever punishment was for those who conciously rejected God.

Also, if God is interinsically Just, this would be to all men so it is totally possible for God to allow those who have never heard of Jesus another option to accept him (perhaps through judgement of their hearts as said in the bible).

The bottom line is that rejection of God's justice based on our limited knowledge is arrogant and shortsighted. It assumes we know all the possiblities that God can employ when we obviously would not even know enough to scratch the surface.