Is hell eternal or not?

[scorpia]

Just a couple of references;

2 Thess 1 : 7-9 : and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed in heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power .

This verse mentions the final punishment as an everlasting destruction....

Jude 7 : In a similair way, Sodom and Gomorrah and teh surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire

This verse is similair

Rev 20 :14-15 : The death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. the lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

This verse however mentions the punishment as a "second death"

Perhaps the latter verse doesn't negate that the "second death" is eternal. But then how is death eternal? Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying? Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

[MagusYanam]

I'm reading the same passage in John, and I don't see it as clear or dichotomous. Here is what I see in the passage: God loves the world and wants to save it by sending his son into it, a world condemned already in its own paradoxes. Does Jesus just show up and say, 'here I am - believe in me or die'? No - this is only one verse in a Gospel that speaks to the contrary, a Jesus who rights people's insufficient efforts, who is active in overcoming disbelief.

This is why it is not enough to divide humanity into believers and unbelievers, or to read into the Gospel a system devoid of grace which guarantees salvation for some while denying it to others on the basis of works. For one thing, I don't know what exists inside other human hearts - there is a space there that exists for the individual alone, and therein lies her freedom. For another thing, I cannot know what power and what reach and what drive God has to save - it is beyond my comprehension. All I have to go on is the way and the truth in the life of Christ, and that should be enough. I have no need to try to figure out who is and who is not saved - that is not up to me, but to God in whose grace I trust.

[myth-one.com]

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Those who do not believe in Him perish.

They will be punished with everlasting destruction ...

Death is everlasting.

But then how is death eternal?

How is death not eternal? The scriptures must speak of our first physical death as sleep, slumber, or rest because all of us will be resurrected once again. Since we will live again, our first "death" does not meet the definition of death. The second death is described as a death. It is eternal. The definition of death from The Random House Dictionary is:

Death: the act of dying; the end of life; the total and permanent cessation of all the vital functions of an animal or plant.

Does it mean a long eternal period in a process of dying?

A long eternal period in a process of dying, is eternal life! Why would God desire to torture millions of people eternally? How does that concept equate with "God is Love?"

Or does it mean a person will for the rest of eternity be dead? Is hell eternal or not?

Yes, that is what it means. The physical location "hell" is the eternal place of restraint for Satan. In that respect it is eternal. The eternally suffering of humans in hell is not true. Those cast into hell are paying their own wages of sin. They die quickly:

For the wages of sin is death; ... (Romans 6:23)

Jesus has already paid the wages of sin for the Christians. He died in our place, so we inherit everlasting life (see John 3:16 above or below).
_____________________________

I'm reading the same passage in John, and I don't see it as clear or dichotomous. Here is what I see in the passage: God loves the world and wants to save it by sending his son into it, a world condemned already in its own paradoxes. Does Jesus just show up and say, 'here I am - believe in me or die'? No - this is only one verse in a Gospel that speaks to the contrary, a Jesus who rights people's insufficient efforts, who is active in overcoming disbelief.

Here is what we must do to be saved from the second death:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Which verses in John contradict this verse?

[MagusYanam]

I'm not going to engage in the pointless rhetorical game of quote-mining to support my point. Serious evangelical theology and ethics cannot simply point to a Bible verse and claim 'this is how things are'. There's not only the matter of interpretation - we need to take account of the larger picture, and there needs to be some synthesis.

I'm just saying here that salvation is not a matter of knowing. We don't know that only Christians will be saved, nor can we. That line of reasoning is simply futile, since it presumes upon the knowledge that only God can have, and it only results in bitterness and dour cynicism against Christianity itself, and Christianity is a religion not of bitterness and cynicism but of hope and joy. Salvation is a matter, as expressed in St John, of believing - of having faith and hope in Christ that he can succeed. The moment one begins speaking of what must be done rather than what can (the necessary rather than the simply possible), one begins confining the work of God in the world through him. St John doesn't speak of must, but of what is and what can be.

(At the same time, that hope and joy exist in fear and trembling, since what we can't know of others, one cannot really know of oneself - thus, faith is needed.)

[myth-one.com]

I'm not going to engage in the pointless rhetorical game of quote-mining to support my point.

So the words you write are simply your opinion or guess? As significant as any of nearly seven billion other possible opinions in the world!

[MagusYanam]

So the words you write are simply your opinion or guess? As significant as any of nearly seven billion other possible opinions in the world!'

First off, why should an opinion be any less significant or meaningful if it is only one in seven billion? Are human beings of less worth the more of them there are?

Secondly, no. If you'd read my post, you'd realise that I was basing my opinion not only on one Bible verse, but on a reading of the entire Gospel, including a Christology inclusive not only of Jesus' birth and cosmology, but on his life and his ministry - which he spent preaching and ministering to the blind, the lame, the sick, the outcast and, yes, the unbelievers. I ask you, if he had divided the world into believers and unbelievers, would he have bothered arguing with and ministering to the Samaritan woman at the well? Would he have allowed his disciples to reason that the Samaritan who helped the wounded man at the side of the road had more of God's favour than the believers who passed him by?

St John 3:16 might be the Gospel-in-a-nutshell, but it simply isn't enough to base one's entire evangelical ethic on a single verse, particularly one which goes so wildly misinterpreted.

[myth-one.com]

So the words you write are simply your opinion or guess? As significant as any of nearly seven billion other possible opinions in the world!'

First off, why should an opinion be any less significant or meaningful if it is only one in seven billion? Are human beings of less worth the more of them there are?

My point is that your opinion is no more significant that the other 6,999,999,999.

Secondly, no. If you'd read my post, you'd realise that I was basing my opinion not only on one Bible verse, but on a reading of the entire Gospel, including a Christology inclusive not only of Jesus' birth and cosmology, but on his life and his ministry - which he spent preaching and ministering to the blind, the lame, the sick, the outcast and, yes, the unbelievers.

You do not quote scripture, so I'm not sure where your opinion originates.

I ask you, if he had divided the world into believers and unbelievers,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him, should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

would he have bothered arguing with and ministering to the Samaritan woman at the well? Would he have allowed his disciples to reason that the Samaritan who helped the wounded man at the side of the road had more of God's favour than the believers who passed him by?

Absolutely, God is Love.

[MagusYanam]

My opinion is one among seven billion, but it is every bit as valid as I make it. The woman didn't forget about her lost coin by consoling herself that she still had ninety-nine more, nor did the shepherd forget about his lost sheep.

You do not quote scripture, so I'm not sure where your opinion originates.

I don't need to quote Scripture, because I'm operating under the assumption that both of us know it already when I allude to something. I could go and find chapter and verse for the Parable of the Good Samaritan or Jesus addressing the woman at the well, but I shouldn't have to.

My point here is that Jesus was not serving those who already believed, he was actively serving those who did not yet believe. Jesus wasn't the wimp you're portraying him as, someone who takes the easy path of ministering only to those who already believe. The Gospels, through the parables Jesus relates (of which I have now referenced several), portray an active, dynamic and affirming God who, through his life and even in death, reaches out to the poor, the sick, the lame and the lost.

[myth-one.com]

My point here is that Jesus was not serving those who already believed, he was actively serving those who did not yet believe. Jesus wasn't the wimp you're portraying him as, someone who takes the easy path of ministering only to those who already believe. The Gospels, through the parables Jesus relates (of which I have now referenced several), portray an active, dynamic and affirming God who, through his life and even in death, reaches out to the poor, the sick, the lame and the lost.

Jesus serves all mankind. Who ever said He was a wimp? How did you get off on this tirade? Seems to me it had something to do with the scriptures dividing mankind into the two camps of believers and non-believers.