I am new here, just in case someone here hasn't read my intro, I wanted to say hello first off. And I thought you should know I have read only the last two pages of this discussion, so if I post something that has already been said I apologize.
I want to start by saying the following is not what I personally beieve about hell or anything else for that matter. I am only posting parts of the bible, because that seems to be the bases of this discussion, the question is, as I see it, if the bible says hell is eternal.
The Quotes and verses from the bible given in the very first post on this thread would make one believe the bible is saying hell is not eternal, but we have to go deeper and take things into context to see the real point to what the bible is saying.
In Rev. chapter 14:9-11 (from the HarperCollins Study Bible, New Revised Standard Version):
..."Those who worship the beast and its image, and receive a mark on their forheads or on their hands, they will also drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and they will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever..."
In Rev. 19:20-21:
And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed in its presence the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire and sulfur. And the rest were killed by the sword of the rider on the horse...
(by 'the rest' is meant the kings and armies who were fighting beside the beast and false prophet)
All of Rev. chapter 20 and 21 should be read to put it into context. Since all versions of the bible are slightly different and since I want to make sure we are all on the same 'page' I will type it all out right here (wish me luck!). I will indicate the verses by typing every even numbered verse, in case someone wants to refer to the verses in the future.
Chapter 20:
Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottemless pit and a great chain. (2) He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years,and threw him into the pit, and locked and sealed it over him, so that he would deceive the nations no more, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be let out for a while.
(4) Then I saw thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. I also saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus (*some translations use: 'for the testimony of Jesus'*)
and for the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their forheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. (6) Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. Over these the second death have no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him a thousand years.
When the thousand years are ended, Satan will be released from his prison (8) and will come out to deceive the nations at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, in order to gather them for battle; they are as numerous as the sands of the sea. They marched up over the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from heaven and consumed them. (10) And the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night, forever and ever.
Then I saw a great white throne and the one who sat on it; the earth and heaven fled from his presence, and no place was found for them. (12) And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Also another book was opened, the book of life. And the dead were judged according to their works, as recorded in the books. And the sea gave up the dead that were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and all were judged according to what they had done. (14) Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire; and anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.
Chapter 21:
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. (2) And I saw the holy city, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "See, the home of God is among mortals. He will dwell with them; they will be his people, and God himself will be with them; (4) he will wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more, for the first things have passed away." And the one who was seated on the throne said, "see, I am making all things new." Also he said, "write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." (6) Then he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give water as a gift from the spring of the water of life. Those who conquer will inherit these things, and I will be their God and they will be my children. (8) But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, the murderers, the fornicators, the sorcerers, the idolaters, and the liars, their place will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death."
Skipping ahead to 21:22 (After a description of the new city for God and his people):
I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb. And the city has no need of sun or moon to shine on it, for the glory of God is its light, and the lamp is the lamb. (24) The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it. The gates will never be shut by day - and there will be no night there. (26) People will bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations. But nothing unclean will enter it, nor anyone who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.
It is clear that there are four distinct places being refered to:
1. Death and Hades (Hades was the place people went when they died in the ancient Greek and Roman world. Good and bad, it is not a place of judgement at the time this was written.
2. The Bottemless pit Satan was placed in, again, this is not a place of judgement, for people atleast. This is a place were Satan was locked up. He only reigns over people on earth ... when God/Jesus lets him come to earth to do so.
3. The Sea, another place the dead are. Hades and Death are 'under the earth.' In ancient Greece and Rome when a sailor was lost at sea he was not expected to be in Hades; I make the assumption here that the author is trying to make sure he covers every dead person .. making it clear to the reader that Jesus and God judge every dead person everywhere, regardless of where the body is (as long as it isn't in the lake of fire, that it)
4. The lake of fire and sulfur, which is located near jesus (Rev. 9-11). This is the place of judgement, the "forever and ever" place of torment, tortur, and screams. This is the second death, and there is no escape from it, according to Rev. 14:9-11, 20:10.
The people who were thrown into the lake of fire in Rev. 14:9-11 were NOT included in the judgement with the books and the book of life, they were not in hades, the sea, or dead. They were already cast into the lake of fire. Also notice in 20:12-14 that the people judged were NOT thrown into the lake of fire, only death and hades and those not written in the book of life were. Also notice in 21:1, the sea was no more ... another place for the dead that was gone. The only thing new was the heavens and the earth. The heavens is not refering to that after life thing we have today it refers to the sky and the stars we see. The place Gad and Jesus reign is the new city of Jerusalem, NOT a paradise called Heaven.
So, in the lake of fire, we have first the people who worshiped the beast and had its mark, The beast and the false prophet, Satan, Death and Hades, and those who are not in the book of life ( if you read Rev. 3.1 on your own you will see that Jesus has the power to wipe your name out of the book, otherwise your name is in it). Note that Satan is no longer in any pit or on earth reigning over people. He has no more power, he is being tormented along with everyone else.
But then in Rev. 21:7-8 it gets a bit confusing...is this a second group who are judged, after everything is new? Or is it a restatement of what was said? If it is a restatement of what was said then it is a little different from the first telling of it. (Just like the two versions of the creation story in Gen.)
Note that the first resurrection in Rev. 20:5-6 are those that were martyrs in Rome with high social status: only the higher classes of people who were Christias were beheaded, the more painful forms of execution were reserved for those with lower status in the social stratae. So, the Christians of high social status who were martyred were resurrected first and live with God and Jesus for 1000 years, then others are raised from the dead and there is a judgement. this is the second resurrection. (followed by a second death). In Rev. 21:7, 'those who conquer' refers to those who have with-stood persecution by the hands of the Romans and who have anguished in prison for it as well. Is the author saying they will rule with God (use of the word 'inherit')? Does 21:8 refer to those who already went into the lake of fire in chapter 14, or are these the ones who persecuted those who 'conquered'??
THAT is the real question, in my opinion. It is clear to me that the lake of fire (I think thats what you guys mean by 'hell') is 'forever and ever' ... the question is, who and what else, besides the beasts army and those who worshiped it, Satan, the false prophet, Death, and Hades, goes there, if any body???
But an even truer question would be, is it realistic? But thats a topic I will touch upon later...
