CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

[tigger2]

CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
........................................................

The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

[Revelations won]

Matthew 28: 17And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

You should so duly observe that Christ stated that ALL POWER WAS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.

Could this have happened on the mount when he was transfigured before Peter, James and John? Does it really matter whether ALL POWER was given to him either in heaven or on the earth, or was this done after his resurrection??

It might be interesting to observe that this refutes the “Trinity Doctrine”, because he obviously did not have “ALL POWER” UNTIL IT WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY GOD THE FATHER, Who is the only one who could bestow such power.

Kind regards,
RW

[onewithhim]

We now have about 368 posts on this topic and from my observation it appears that much of the opposing views stem from a failure to fully understand the true nature and corporeal character of the "Godhead".

The "Godhead" consist of God the Father, His firstborn son Jesus Christ (Jehovah) and the Holy Ghost. Three separate and distinct personages, but ONE IN UNITY.

The "opposing views" are the views disagreeing with the Scriptures. We who say Jesus is not part of a trinity are the ones who have Scripture to back us up. Trinitarians are totally submerged in pagan philosophy and empty church doctrine from the 4th century A.D. Views like yours are, apparently, are the opposing views.

Anyone's understanding of "the Godhead" is as good as another's view. Trinitarians have many different views, some conflicting. You know, even the word "Godhead" is not agreed upon by Bible translators. For example, the New American Standard Bible takes that word "Godhead" right out of the verse that it's found in in many Bibles, Colossians 2:9. Somebody way back in the day saw fir to add a bit of meaning to the verse. The NASB puts it this way:

"For in Him [Christ] all the fullness of the Diety dwells in bodily form."

Another version puts it this way: "Because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily." (New World Translation)

Yet another: "In Christ all the fullness of the Diety lives in bodily form." (NIV)


Some say that this means that all of God was in Christ's human body. Others have a more sensible, harmonizing explanation (harmonizing with all other Scriptures). It is said that Christ represented his Father, God, as if he were a reflection of God, or an image of God. (Colossians 2:15). This was possible because Christ learned from God, he watched God in heaven for untold eons and learned everything he knew from God. (John 5:19) That is why he could be said to contain "all of the fullness of the Diety," his Father, God. Jesus could and did represent God as perfectly as a begotten Son could possibly do. It was indeed "all the fullness" of God's ways and thoughts.

So the term "Godhead" is misleading, unnecessary, and, actually, spurious. There is one Person as the Diety---Jehovah (Psalm 83:18, KJV). The Son, the "only-begotten," is next in line, subservient to the Father (God), and the second most powerful and important Person in the universe. Period. Why people have to make a God out of Jesus I don't understand. It is not Scriptural.


.

[onewithhim]

For those who fail to clearly understand this point, I refer you too the topic "Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament".

We should always remember that our savior and redeemer was chosen and "Foreordained" by God the Father before the foundations of this earth were laid.

It is pretty clear, if people would check out ALL of the posts in the thread about Jehovah being Jesus, that Jehovah and Jesus are two distinct individuals---Jehovah being God Almighty, and Jesus being Jehovah's only-begotten Son.

Lastly, Jesus was not fore-ordained to redeem the world before the earth was made. No one knew what Adam and Eve would do yet. God chose not to know, so He could offer them eternal life without hypocrisy. You use the word "earth" when the word is "world." The foundations of the world. The "world" is not the planet. The "world" being referred to is the great mass of people that are alienated from God by their wickedness. It is the same "world" that John talks about at I John 2:15-17. It is not the planet. When Adam rebelled, THEN Jehovah fore-ordained that a Redeemer would be necessary to save mankind from eternal oblivion. That was when the world of alienated mankind began.


.

[Checkpoint]

For those who fail to clearly understand this point, I refer you too the topic "Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament".

We should always remember that our savior and redeemer was chosen and "Foreordained" by God the Father before the foundations of this earth were laid.

It is pretty clear, if people would check out ALL of the posts in the thread about Jehovah being Jesus, that Jehovah and Jesus are two distinct individuals---Jehovah being God Almighty, and Jesus being Jehovah's only-begotten Son.

Lastly, Jesus was not fore-ordained to redeem the world before the earth was made. No one knew what Adam and Eve would do yet. God chose not to know, so He could offer them eternal life without hypocrisy. You use the word "earth" when the word is "world." The foundations of the world. The "world" is not the planet. The "world" being referred to is the great mass of people that are alienated from God by their wickedness. It is the same "world" that John talks about at I John 2:15-17. It is not the planet. When Adam rebelled, THEN Jehovah fore-ordained that a Redeemer would be necessary to save mankind from eternal oblivion. That was when the world of alienated mankind began.


.

Hi agaij, onewithhim.

An interesting exchange.

About which I ask this question:

Just who was it who laid "the foundation of the world(kosmos)", and when?

[onewithhim]

For those who fail to clearly understand this point, I refer you too the topic "Jehovah of the OT, is Jesus Christ of the New Testament".

We should always remember that our savior and redeemer was chosen and "Foreordained" by God the Father before the foundations of this earth were laid.

It is pretty clear, if people would check out ALL of the posts in the thread about Jehovah being Jesus, that Jehovah and Jesus are two distinct individuals---Jehovah being God Almighty, and Jesus being Jehovah's only-begotten Son.

Lastly, Jesus was not fore-ordained to redeem the world before the earth was made. No one knew what Adam and Eve would do yet. God chose not to know, so He could offer them eternal life without hypocrisy. You use the word "earth" when the word is "world." The foundations of the world. The "world" is not the planet. The "world" being referred to is the great mass of people that are alienated from God by their wickedness. It is the same "world" that John talks about at I John 2:15-17. It is not the planet. When Adam rebelled, THEN Jehovah fore-ordained that a Redeemer would be necessary to save mankind from eternal oblivion. That was when the world of alienated mankind began.


.

Hi agaij, onewithhim.

An interesting exchange.

About which I ask this question:

Just who was it who laid "the foundation of the world(kosmos), and when?

The "founding of the world" was laid by the actions of Adam, who rebelled and thus began, by his fathering Cain, the world alienated from God. I'd like to do a little more research on "kosmos." I'm not sure that that Greek word is used with "world" when it is referring to the wicked world of mankind.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #375]

Checkpoint wrote:

Hi again, onewithhim.

An interesting exchange.

About which I ask this question:

Just who was it who laid "the foundation of the world(kosmos), and when?

onewithhim answered:

The "founding of the world" was laid by the actions of Adam, who rebelled and thus began, by his fathering Cain, the world alienated from God. I'd like to do a little more research on "kosmos." I'm not sure that that Greek word is used with "world" when it is referring to the wicked world of mankind.

To do a little more research on key words can be helpful and enlightening.

Here below are two I have been viewing:

HELPS Word-studies

2889 kósmos (literally, "something ordered") – properly, an "ordered system" (like the universe, creation); the world.

[The English term "cosmetic" is derived from 2889 /kósmos, i.e. the order ("ensemble") used of treating the face as a whole.]

HELPS Word-studies

2602 katabolḗ (from 2596 /katá, "exactly according to," down from the most general to the most specific detail, "following all the way along," and 906 /bállō, "to cast") – properly, a foundation, cast according to a blueprint (original design); the substructure which determines the entire direction (destination) of all that follows; the foundation-plan, upon which the entire super-structure is built; (figuratively) the beginning (founding) that purposefully designs all that follows.

2602 /katabolḗ ("foundation-plan") typically relates to Christ's incarnation, i.e. coming to earth in the flesh to be our Redeemer. This divine plan was set and sealed (guaranteed) before creation (Heb 9:26; 1 Pet 1:20; Rev 13:8). In general, 2602 (katabolḗ) refers to the basis God has established, upon which all people can know Him. This was laid down before the first ray of sunshine or drop of water touched the earth.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Checkpoint in post #367]

If that is so, then those who, after receiving the promised Holy Spirit, told the Good News, as recorded in Acts, missed the boat.

Don't understand what you are trying to communicate.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to Eloi in post #368]

Somehow you think that Jesus was perfect, and a perfect sacrifice because he was God. That is not what the Bible teaches. Jesus was perfect because he was born as a human in a different way from the rest of the humans; actually, he came from heaven where he was a whole spiritual being next to his Father and God.

Like Checkpoint just told you, not even one of the first century christians even suggested, ever, what you are saying.

The first century Christians knew this because Jesus said declared that there was one that was good let alone perfect. When the rich young ruler came to Jesus he called him good. Jesus gave him the following response.

Mark 10:18 "And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone."

The only way that Jesus could have been the perfect sacrifice for man's sin problem was to be God because God alone is good let alone perfect.

Heb. 8:1 Now this is the main point of what we are saying: We have such a high priest as this, and he has sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister of the holy place and of the true tent, which Jehovah set up, and not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it was necessary for this one also to have something to offer. 4 If he were on earth, he would not be a priest, since there are already men who offer the gifts according to the Law. 5 These men are offering sacred service in a typical representation and a shadow of the heavenly things; just as Moses, when about to construct the tent, was given the divine command: For He says: “See that you make all things after their pattern that was shown to you in the mountain.” 6 But now Jesus has obtained a more excellent ministry because he is also the mediator of a correspondingly better covenant, which has been legally established on better promises.

It is interesting that you have to change the text of Scripture for your idea of Jesus to be plausible. "Jehovah" is not the Greek word the writer of Hebrews used here. The word the writer of Hebrews used was Kurios which is normally translated "Lord". Jesus was called "Kurios" many times.

Like for example when the disciples were in a boat crossing the Sea of Galilee and was caught in a storm and they said.'

Matthew 8:25 'And they went and woke him, saying, “Save us, Lord; we are perishing.”'

Peter also called Jesus Lord. When Peter saw Jesus walking on the water Peter said,

Matthew 14:28 “Lord, if it’s you,” Peter replied, “tell me to come to you on the water.”

Peter also calls Jesus Lord and God,

2 Peter 1:1 Simeon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:"

As does the writer of Titus.

Titus 2:13 "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,"

As does Jesus own disciple to Jesus

John 20:28 "Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”

Jesus never told people not to call Him God or not to worship Him as God.

Like in Matthew 14:23 "And those in the boat worshiped him, saying, “Truly you are the Son of God.”

John 9:35-38 "Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?” “Who is he, sir?” the man asked. “Tell me so that I may believe in him.” Jesus said, “You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.” Then the man said, “Lord, I believe,” and he worshiped him."

Matthew 28:8-10 "So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. Suddenly Jesus met them. “Greetings,” he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him."

Matthew 28:16-17 "Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him."

Jesus did not stop these people from calling Him good or from worshiping Him as God. The only way for Jesus to be GOOD was to be God otherwise He was a liar and a heretic but definitely not GOOD. And the only way that Jesus could have paid the penalty for our sin was to be the PERFECT sacrifice for our sin.

So if you do not believe Jesus is God incarnate you are still in our sin because Jesus could not have paid the penalty for your sin.

[EarthScienceguy]

[Replying to onewithhim in post #369]

I answered this in post 378.

[Eloi]

[Replying to EarthScienceguy in post #378]
Are you trying to make believe that calling Jesus "Lord" is the same as calling him GOD?

Acts 2:36 Therefore, let all the house of Israel know for a certainty that God made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you executed on a stake.”

I remind you of a prayer from Jesus to God:

Matt. 11:25 At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children. 26 Yes, O Father, because this is the way you approved. ..."

I would not teach anything about Jesus that he himself would not approve of being said.