CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

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CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #1

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CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

"trinity ...1. [cap.] Theol. The union of three persons or hypostases (the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost) in one Godhead, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three persons or hypostases as to individuality. 2. Any symbol of the Trinity in art. 3. Any union of three in one; a triad; as the Hindu trinity, or Trimurti." - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam Co., 1961. (emphasis added by me.)
………………………………..

Athanasian Creed:

"And in this Trinity none is afore, or after other, none is greater or less than others; but the whole three persons are co- eternal together; and co-equal. So that in all things as is aforesaid: the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.

"HE THEREFORE THAT WILL BE SAVED MUST THUS THINK OF THE TRINITY."
....................................................
"Trinity, the Most Holy

"The most sublime mystery of the Christian faith is this: 'God is absolutely one in nature and essence, and relatively three in Persons (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) who are really distinct from each other." - p. 584, The Catholic Encyclopedia, Thomas Nelson, Inc., Publishers, 1976.
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The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia
"1. The Term 'Trinity':
"The term "Trinity" is not a Biblical term, and we are not using Biblical language when we define what is expressed by it as the doctrine that there is one only and true God, but in the unity of the Godhead there are three coeternal and coequal Persons, the same in substance but distinct in subsistence." - p. 3012, Vol. IV, Eerdmans, 1984.

………………………………....

Challenges from scripture itself:

(A) Please carefully and thoroughly search to find a vision, dream, or clear description in scripture wherein God is visibly shown as more than one person.

(This is really not that difficult. Either there is a vision, dream, description, etc. somewhere in scripture clearly visibly showing the one God as three persons or there isn't. Either way, it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
………………………………............

(B) Please show where in scripture God is ever described using the word "three."

(Either God is described somewhere in scripture using the word "three" or its clear equivalent (just as He is clearly described with the word “one� or its equivalent - “alone,� “only,� etc. ), or He is not. Either way it should not be difficult to ascertain and admit truthfully.)
……………………………….............

(C) Please find clear, direct, undisputed statements (equivalent to “Jesus is the Christ� or "YHWH is God" which are found repeatedly in clear, undisputed scriptures) which declare:

“YHWH is the Son,� or “YHWH is the Firstborn,� or, “YHWH is the Messiah (or ‘Christ’),� or any other equally clear, undisputed statement that “Jesus is YHWH� (the only God according to scripture).
……………………………….................

Since the Father is clearly, directly, and indisputably called "God, the Father," many, many times, and the Son and Holy Spirit are said by trinitarians to be equally the one God (in ‘three distinct persons’):

(D) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures where Jesus is called "God, the Son," (equal to those which declare "God, the Father" – Ro. 15:6; 1 Cor. 1:3; 1 Cor. 8:6; 2 Cor. 11:31; Gal. 1:1; Eph. 4:6; 1 Thess. 1:1; 2 Thess. 1:2; etc.)

and,
………………………………....................

(E) Please give equally clear, undisputed scriptures (such as "God, the Father") where the Holy Spirit is called "God, the Holy Spirit."
......................................................................

(F) If Jesus and/or the first century Christians (considered a sect of Judaism at that time) truly believed that Jesus was God, How could they possibly be allowed to teach in the temple and synagogues as they were?
………………………………...................

(G) If John truly believed a stunning new essential ‘knowledge’ of God that Jesus is equally God, why would he summarize and conclude his Gospel with, “But these [the Gospel of John] are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God…�

……………………………….................

(H) When the chief priests and the whole Sanhedrin were attempting to gather evidence to kill Jesus, why did they have to hire false witnesses? And why did these same priests and false witnesses never say that Jesus believed (or taught) that he was God? Instead the high priest finally said to Jesus: “Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God.� - Matt. 26:59-63 NIV.

Obviously these officials had never heard anyone accuse Jesus or his followers of claiming that Jesus was God!

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #401

Post by PinSeeker »

Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:03 pm There is NOT any triune Jehovah...
Oh, but there absolutely is. See above (various Biblical references previously cited).
Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:03 pm I don't know where some people get those ideas from. Obviously, NOT from Jesus (Mat. 22:35-37), and NOT from the Word of God (Deut. 6:4,5).
Cool, well, I don't understand how people can avoid or miss what's right in front of them, as clear as the nose on their face. But, the Spirit is indeed like the wind, blowing where He wishes (John 3).

Grace and peace to all.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #402

Post by Checkpoint »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:17 pm
Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:03 pm There is NOT any triune Jehovah...
Oh, but there absolutely is. See above (various Biblical references previously cited).
Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:03 pm I don't know where some people get those ideas from. Obviously, NOT from Jesus (Mat. 22:35-37), and NOT from the Word of God (Deut. 6:4,5).
Cool, well, I don't understand how people can avoid or miss what's right in front of them, as clear as the nose on their face. But, the Spirit is indeed like the wind, blowing where He wishes (John 3).

Grace and peace to all.
So, there we go again, in this never-ending(in this life) clash of views on what Scripture says to us, about this and that.

I think God is far more interested in who we are, in Him, and in our daily walk with Him, than what we have concluded about this and that, or whether we are "right" or "wrong" about "the truth" of such things.

His grace and peace to you, Pinseeker.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #403

Post by Eloi »

PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:17 pm(...) Grace and peace to all.
Mr. WOW_LOL, you have been giving so much Grace and Peace that you have been left without any.

Grace and peace to you, not mine, but the same that you have been wasting.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #404

Post by PinSeeker »

Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm So, there we go again, in this never-ending(in this life) clash of views on what Scripture says to us, about this and that.
Isn't that the purpose of this board? To debate these things? Additionally, it's a scriptural thing to think on whatever is true, honorable, just, pure, lovely, commendable, excellent, anything worthy of praise (Paul, Philippians 4:8). Now, wandering into vain discussion, having swerved from love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith (Paul again, 1 Timothy 1:5-6) is another matter altogether, of course.
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm I think God is far more interested in who we are, in Him, and in our daily walk with Him, than what we have concluded about this and that, or whether we are "right" or "wrong" about "the truth" of such things.
True, but I think God is also interested in us corporately as well as individually -- just as much so if not more so -- with respect to unity, too, don't you? Yeah, so, interpersonal debate is not in and of itself a bad thing. And yes, I think that getting to the truths contained in His Word is immensely important because, as John Calvin writes at the very beginning of his Institutes of the Christian Religion:
.
"Nearly all the wisdom we possess, that is to say, true and sound wisdom, consists of two parts: the knowledge of God and of ourselves."
.
Of course, John Calvin was not infallible, and none of his works were divinely inspired and thus not Scripture. But none of that allays the fact that at least most of what he wrote is true, the above quote being but one example. :)
Checkpoint wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 8:16 pm His grace and peace to you, Pinseeker.
To you also, Checkpoint.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #405

Post by otseng »

Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 9:48 pm
PinSeeker wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 6:17 pm(...) Grace and peace to all.
Mr. WOW_LOL, you have been giving so much Grace and Peace that you have been left without any.

Grace and peace to you, not mine, but the same that you have been wasting.
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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #406

Post by onewithhim »

Eloi wrote: Tue Sep 15, 2020 2:03 pm There is NOT any triune Jehovah:

Code: Select all

1) Jesus was anointed by Jehovah:

Psalm 2:1 Why are the nations agitated
And the peoples muttering an empty thing?
 2 The kings of the earth take their stand
And high officials gather together as one
Against Jehovah and against his anointed one.

Acts 4:24 On hearing this, they raised their voices with one accord to God and said:
“Sovereign Lord, you are the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and all the things in them, 25 and who said through holy spirit by the mouth of our forefather David, your servant: ‘Why did nations become agitated and peoples meditate on empty things? 26 The kings of the earth took their stand and the rulers gathered together as one against Jehovah and against his anointed one.’ 27 For truly both Herod and Pontius Pilate with men of the nations and with peoples of Israel were gathered together in this city against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, 28 to do what your hand and counsel had determined beforehand to occur.

2) Jesus was the prophet "Moses-like" that Jehovah had promised:

Deut.18:14 “For these nations that you are dispossessing used to listen to those practicing magic and divination, but Jehovah your God has not allowed you to do anything like this. 15 Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to him. 16 This is in response to what you asked of Jehovah your God in Horʹeb on the day of the assembly when you said, ‘Do not let me hear the voice of Jehovah my God or see this great fire anymore, so that I do not die.’ 17 Then Jehovah said to me, ‘What they have said is good. 18 I will raise up for them from the midst of their brothers a prophet like you, and I will put my words in his mouth, and he will speak to them all that I command him. 19 Indeed, I will require an account from the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in my name.

Acts 3:18 But in this way God has fulfilled the things he announced beforehand through the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer.
19 “Repent, therefore, and turn around so as to get your sins blotted out, so that seasons of refreshing may come from Jehovah himself 20 and he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus. 21 Heaven must hold this one within itself until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke through the mouth of his holy prophets of old. 22 In fact, Moses said: ‘Jehovah your God will raise up for you from among your brothers a prophet like me. You must listen to whatever he tells you. 23 Indeed, anyone who does not listen to that Prophet will be completely destroyed from among the people.’

3) Jehovah sat Jesus Christ at His right hand when He raised him:

Psalm 110:1 Jehovah declared to my Lord:
“Sit at my right hand
Until I place your enemies as a stool for your feet.”

Ephes.1:17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him. 18 He has enlightened the eyes of your heart, so that you may know to what hope he called you, what glorious riches he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, 19 and how surpassing the greatness of his power is toward us believers. It is according to the operation of the mightiness of his strength, 20 which he exercised toward Christ when he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

4) Jehovah chose Jesus as High Priest in the manner of Melchizedek:

Psalm 110:4 Jehovah has sworn an oath, and he will not change his mind:
“You are a priest forever
In the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek!”

Heb. 5:1 For every high priest taken from among men is appointed in their behalf over the things relating to God, so that he may offer gifts and sacrifices for sins. 2 He is able to deal compassionately with the ignorant and erring ones, since he too is confronted with his own weakness, 3 and because of that he must make offerings for his own sins just as he does for those of the people.
4 A man does not take this honor of his own accord, but he receives it only when he is called by God, just as Aaron was. 5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 6 As he also says in another place, “You are a priest forever in the manner of Mel·chizʹe·dek.”

5) Jesus is Jehovah's heir:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah; he said to me: “ (...) 8 Ask of me, and I will give nations as your inheritance and the ends of the earth as your possession."

Heb.1:1 Long ago God spoke to our forefathers by means of the prophets on many occasions and in many ways. 2 Now at the end of these days he has spoken to us by means of a Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the systems of things.

6) Jehovah declared Jesus Christ as His Son:

Psalm 2:7 Let me proclaim the decree of Jehovah;
He said to me: “You are my son;
Today I have become your father. ... "

Heb. 5:5 So, too, the Christ did not glorify himself by becoming a high priest, but was glorified by the One who said to him: “You are my son; today I have become your father.” 
I don't know where some people get those ideas from. Obviously, NOT from Jesus (Mat. 22:35-37), and NOT from the Word of God (Deut. 6:4,5).
Excellent reasoning, Eloi, and reasoning that cannot be overturned, if a person would just meditate on the Scriptures you quoted. I wonder if anyone else here believes that God had to die Himself to provide a ransom. What a narrow view of Almighty God! How could God, the Creator of the entire universe, actually DIE? He could not, and, anyway, you brought out an important point. To propitiate for what Adam did, all that was needed was another perfect man, not God Himself.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #407

Post by onewithhim »

It would be nice to have the others' responses to my last post. I enjoy other people's viewpoints, even though I might disagree. Do others here have that way of thinking?

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #408

Post by onewithhim »

Does anyone here really believe that Jesus and Jehovah are one and the same and that Jesus prayed to himself and spoke to himself when saying, "I thank you Father..."? (John 11:41)

If Jesus wasn't talking to himself, then his Father is clearly superior to himself. This stands even though Jesus went back to heaven; he maintained the position he always had---subordination to the Father. (See I Corinthians 11:3.) Wouldn't you say?

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #409

Post by onewithhim »

[Replying to onewithhim in post #408]

Could someone please answer? Thank you.

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Re: CLEAR CHALLENGES FOR THE TRINITY DOCTRINE

Post #410

Post by onewithhim »

I look forward to any ideas on the subject of Jesus talking to himself when "praying," and, too, any reflection concerning post #406. I appreciate any cooperation. Thanks.

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